Protect OUR future. Sign the petition now.
03-01-2014, 01:06 PM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,902
Originally Posted by BigGuns
You just proved my point!
On March 19th Delta DOESN'T FLY TO BERLIN!!! It's a codeshare! ZERO US pilot jobs!
If NAI is successful all US flag operations will go to forgein carriers! And those pilots flying at BA AF KLM & LH will be unemployed with their US counterparts!
On March 19th Delta DOESN'T FLY TO BERLIN!!! It's a codeshare! ZERO US pilot jobs!
If NAI is successful all US flag operations will go to forgein carriers! And those pilots flying at BA AF KLM & LH will be unemployed with their US counterparts!
It does not matter who does the flying. It's on the Delta website. The passenger's money is paid to Delta. How the money is divided up is behind the scenes.
Now BigGuns, what is your position on Delta taking money from a US passenger and putting them on a foreign carrier? For that matter where are the "information Videos" from ALPA and MECs? Isn't that the same thing as taking flying away from US carriers?
IMO ALPA is grasping at loose straws trying to garner lost respect amongst its waning membership over an issue which tantamount to a flea bite on an elephant's a$$. And what for? Flight attendant pay fot those employed in Thailand.
I would think ALPA and the MEC would place emphasis for repayments to the employees of Delta for the concessions made after 9/11. After all the prophits were quite handsome.
Last edited by captjns; 03-01-2014 at 01:22 PM.
03-01-2014, 01:10 PM
#92
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MSP7ERB
Posts: 1,886
This article came today in the Wall Street Journal. Now, in addition to Abu Dhabi, we have to be concerned about Doha and Qatari Airways.
----------------
Qatar in Talks Over U.S. 'Preclearance' Customs Facility
By RORY JONES
Updated March 1, 2014 9:09 a.m. ET
A 787 Dreamliner owned by Qatar Airways stands on display at the Singapore Airshow in February. The new airport serving Qatar's capital, Doha, is in talks for a U.S. 'preclearance' customs facility. Bloomberg News
Qatar is the latest Persian Gulf country to apply for a controversial U.S. "preclearance" customs post, a development that could offer the region's government-owned carriers an advantage over other airlines.
Doha's new international airport, which is expected to open later this year, is in talks with U.S. authorities over such a post, according to Akbar Al Baker, the chief executive of Qatar Airways.
A similar U.S. Customs and Border Protection facility that opened in Abu Dhabi earlier this year led to an uproar among U.S. pilot associations, which claim such posts would give Gulf carriers an unfair advantage over peers. The facility allows passengers to go through U.S. customs before boarding their flight and thus bypass the process after arriving in the U.S.
"This will enhance our product as we are growing in the United States," Mr. Al Baker told reporters Saturday.
The growth of the Gulf region's three biggest carriers--Qatar, Emirates Airline and Etihad Airways--has irked some European and U.S. carriers, which have complained the Gulf airlines are funded by deep-pocketed governments that subsidize their cost base.
The Air Line Pilots Association--the largest pilot union in the U.S., representing some 50,000 pilots--has objected to the Abu Dhabi facility, previously calling it an "example of bad U.S. government policy."
Abu Dhabi, whose preclearance facility opened in January, was the 15th airport to secure such a post. Ireland's Shannon Airport was the first outside North America to open one of the U.S. facilities. Similar posts exist in Dublin and several Canadian airports as well as in Bermuda, Aruba and the Bahamas.
Etihad, which is based at the Abu Dhabi airport, plans to increase flights to New York this month and will launch service to Los Angeles in June and Dallas-Fort Worth in December. No U.S. carriers currently fly to Abu Dhabi, which is paying for about 85% of its preclearance facility.
The two other large Gulf carriers are also aggressively expanding in the U.S. market. Qatar plans to start service to Miami, Philadelphia and Dallas-Fort Worth this year, in addition to its routes to New York, Washington, Chicago and Houston. Emirates said last week it intends to begin service to Chicago and will start flights to Boston from Dubai this month.
Dubai, which operates the world's second-busiest airport for international traffic, has also expressed an interest in setting up a preclearance facility.
Write to Rory Jones at [email protected]
----------------
Qatar in Talks Over U.S. 'Preclearance' Customs Facility
By RORY JONES
Updated March 1, 2014 9:09 a.m. ET
A 787 Dreamliner owned by Qatar Airways stands on display at the Singapore Airshow in February. The new airport serving Qatar's capital, Doha, is in talks for a U.S. 'preclearance' customs facility. Bloomberg News
Qatar is the latest Persian Gulf country to apply for a controversial U.S. "preclearance" customs post, a development that could offer the region's government-owned carriers an advantage over other airlines.
Doha's new international airport, which is expected to open later this year, is in talks with U.S. authorities over such a post, according to Akbar Al Baker, the chief executive of Qatar Airways.
A similar U.S. Customs and Border Protection facility that opened in Abu Dhabi earlier this year led to an uproar among U.S. pilot associations, which claim such posts would give Gulf carriers an unfair advantage over peers. The facility allows passengers to go through U.S. customs before boarding their flight and thus bypass the process after arriving in the U.S.
"This will enhance our product as we are growing in the United States," Mr. Al Baker told reporters Saturday.
The growth of the Gulf region's three biggest carriers--Qatar, Emirates Airline and Etihad Airways--has irked some European and U.S. carriers, which have complained the Gulf airlines are funded by deep-pocketed governments that subsidize their cost base.
The Air Line Pilots Association--the largest pilot union in the U.S., representing some 50,000 pilots--has objected to the Abu Dhabi facility, previously calling it an "example of bad U.S. government policy."
Abu Dhabi, whose preclearance facility opened in January, was the 15th airport to secure such a post. Ireland's Shannon Airport was the first outside North America to open one of the U.S. facilities. Similar posts exist in Dublin and several Canadian airports as well as in Bermuda, Aruba and the Bahamas.
Etihad, which is based at the Abu Dhabi airport, plans to increase flights to New York this month and will launch service to Los Angeles in June and Dallas-Fort Worth in December. No U.S. carriers currently fly to Abu Dhabi, which is paying for about 85% of its preclearance facility.
The two other large Gulf carriers are also aggressively expanding in the U.S. market. Qatar plans to start service to Miami, Philadelphia and Dallas-Fort Worth this year, in addition to its routes to New York, Washington, Chicago and Houston. Emirates said last week it intends to begin service to Chicago and will start flights to Boston from Dubai this month.
Dubai, which operates the world's second-busiest airport for international traffic, has also expressed an interest in setting up a preclearance facility.
Write to Rory Jones at [email protected]
03-01-2014, 02:37 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,902
Originally Posted by LeineLodge
You mention that it is not uncommon for European airlines to have their AOC issued a different country than their home. Can you provide examples?
Have you signed the petition?
03-01-2014, 07:40 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by Elvis90
This article came today in the Wall Street Journal. Now, in addition to Abu Dhabi, we have to be concerned about Doha and Qatari Airways.
----------------
Qatar in Talks Over U.S. 'Preclearance' Customs Facility
By RORY JONES
Updated March 1, 2014 9:09 a.m. ET
A 787 Dreamliner owned by Qatar Airways stands on display at the Singapore Airshow in February. The new airport serving Qatar's capital, Doha, is in talks for a U.S. 'preclearance' customs facility. Bloomberg News
Qatar is the latest Persian Gulf country to apply for a controversial U.S. "preclearance" customs post, a development that could offer the region's government-owned carriers an advantage over other airlines.
Doha's new international airport, which is expected to open later this year, is in talks with U.S. authorities over such a post, according to Akbar Al Baker, the chief executive of Qatar Airways.
A similar U.S. Customs and Border Protection facility that opened in Abu Dhabi earlier this year led to an uproar among U.S. pilot associations, which claim such posts would give Gulf carriers an unfair advantage over peers. The facility allows passengers to go through U.S. customs before boarding their flight and thus bypass the process after arriving in the U.S.
"This will enhance our product as we are growing in the United States," Mr. Al Baker told reporters Saturday.
The growth of the Gulf region's three biggest carriers--Qatar, Emirates Airline and Etihad Airways--has irked some European and U.S. carriers, which have complained the Gulf airlines are funded by deep-pocketed governments that subsidize their cost base.
The Air Line Pilots Association--the largest pilot union in the U.S., representing some 50,000 pilots--has objected to the Abu Dhabi facility, previously calling it an "example of bad U.S. government policy."
Abu Dhabi, whose preclearance facility opened in January, was the 15th airport to secure such a post. Ireland's Shannon Airport was the first outside North America to open one of the U.S. facilities. Similar posts exist in Dublin and several Canadian airports as well as in Bermuda, Aruba and the Bahamas.
Etihad, which is based at the Abu Dhabi airport, plans to increase flights to New York this month and will launch service to Los Angeles in June and Dallas-Fort Worth in December. No U.S. carriers currently fly to Abu Dhabi, which is paying for about 85% of its preclearance facility.
The two other large Gulf carriers are also aggressively expanding in the U.S. market. Qatar plans to start service to Miami, Philadelphia and Dallas-Fort Worth this year, in addition to its routes to New York, Washington, Chicago and Houston. Emirates said last week it intends to begin service to Chicago and will start flights to Boston from Dubai this month.
Dubai, which operates the world's second-busiest airport for international traffic, has also expressed an interest in setting up a preclearance facility.
Write to Rory Jones at [email protected]
----------------
Qatar in Talks Over U.S. 'Preclearance' Customs Facility
By RORY JONES
Updated March 1, 2014 9:09 a.m. ET
A 787 Dreamliner owned by Qatar Airways stands on display at the Singapore Airshow in February. The new airport serving Qatar's capital, Doha, is in talks for a U.S. 'preclearance' customs facility. Bloomberg News
Qatar is the latest Persian Gulf country to apply for a controversial U.S. "preclearance" customs post, a development that could offer the region's government-owned carriers an advantage over other airlines.
Doha's new international airport, which is expected to open later this year, is in talks with U.S. authorities over such a post, according to Akbar Al Baker, the chief executive of Qatar Airways.
A similar U.S. Customs and Border Protection facility that opened in Abu Dhabi earlier this year led to an uproar among U.S. pilot associations, which claim such posts would give Gulf carriers an unfair advantage over peers. The facility allows passengers to go through U.S. customs before boarding their flight and thus bypass the process after arriving in the U.S.
"This will enhance our product as we are growing in the United States," Mr. Al Baker told reporters Saturday.
The growth of the Gulf region's three biggest carriers--Qatar, Emirates Airline and Etihad Airways--has irked some European and U.S. carriers, which have complained the Gulf airlines are funded by deep-pocketed governments that subsidize their cost base.
The Air Line Pilots Association--the largest pilot union in the U.S., representing some 50,000 pilots--has objected to the Abu Dhabi facility, previously calling it an "example of bad U.S. government policy."
Abu Dhabi, whose preclearance facility opened in January, was the 15th airport to secure such a post. Ireland's Shannon Airport was the first outside North America to open one of the U.S. facilities. Similar posts exist in Dublin and several Canadian airports as well as in Bermuda, Aruba and the Bahamas.
Etihad, which is based at the Abu Dhabi airport, plans to increase flights to New York this month and will launch service to Los Angeles in June and Dallas-Fort Worth in December. No U.S. carriers currently fly to Abu Dhabi, which is paying for about 85% of its preclearance facility.
The two other large Gulf carriers are also aggressively expanding in the U.S. market. Qatar plans to start service to Miami, Philadelphia and Dallas-Fort Worth this year, in addition to its routes to New York, Washington, Chicago and Houston. Emirates said last week it intends to begin service to Chicago and will start flights to Boston from Dubai this month.
Dubai, which operates the world's second-busiest airport for international traffic, has also expressed an interest in setting up a preclearance facility.
Write to Rory Jones at [email protected]
Al Udeid air base, located just west of Doha, is home to a large number of US forces. UAL offers daily service between DOH and IAD.
The new US destinations planned by QR are a direct result of its' participation in the One World Alliance.
No, I did not sign the petition.
03-01-2014, 08:29 PM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 767-400
Posts: 797
Originally Posted by captjns
You are missing the big picture BigGuns. I'm illustrating the economics. By coincidence 29 percent of Air Berlin, a German carrier is owned by Etihad, another foreign carrier that everyone feels threatened by.
Originally Posted by captjns
It does not matter who does the flying. It's on the Delta website. The passenger's money is paid to Delta. How the money is divided up is behind the scenes.
Now BigGuns, what is your position on Delta taking money from a US passenger and putting them on a foreign carrier? For that matter where are the "information Videos" from ALPA and MECs? Isn't that the same thing as taking flying away from US carriers?
Now BigGuns, what is your position on Delta taking money from a US passenger and putting them on a foreign carrier? For that matter where are the "information Videos" from ALPA and MECs? Isn't that the same thing as taking flying away from US carriers?
Originally Posted by captjns
IMO ALPA is grasping at loose straws trying to garner lost respect amongst its waning membership over an issue which tantamount to a flea bite on an elephant's a$$. And what for? Flight attendant pay fot those employed in Thailand.
03-02-2014, 05:52 AM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,902
Originally Posted by BigGuns
IMO you are trying to justify the choices you made in your career, so that you are able to sleep at night!!
The carrier I was with in 1991 wanted the employees to take pay cuts across the board. Now take note... management did not take any cuts in pay, benefits, or bonuses for that matter. Our competency is demonstrated every day we put our uniforms on. Not to mention three times a year, twice in the simulator, and once in the aircraft. Management, is highly rewarded by demonstrating incompetency by making decisions which ultimately lead the carrier into bankruptcy.
I made the choice to never work for an airline that would not provide adequate compensation, provide benefits and perks based on the services I have provided, and not treat it's pilots with disrespect.
A friend and colleague of mine told me about contract flying and instructing overseas. Back in the day, my experience overseas was to the crew hotel and a bit of a stroll around town, then back on the jet. I never thought of living overseas in an apartment paid by the carrier and the money, benefits and perks? Not bad either.
IMO salaries must be commensurate with skill sets upon the commencement of employment. Generally, one's skill sets increase in value to the company. That said compensation and benefits need to increase accordingly.
The choices I made were so I could continue to put food on the table, secure college education tuition at top universities for my children, pay the mortgage, and guaranty a fund for retirement which, all which was stripped by most US carriers... recommended by the MECs industry wide with the exception of a few carriers.
That said BigGuns, my entire family, myself, and now extended family sleep very well.
We all know petitions can be signed by pilots. Pilots can perform their information walks at the airports. MECs can send video messages via You Tube. But at the end of the day... what is accomplished? Nothing.
It's up to the airline's officers, if and when directed by the Board of Directors, to engage the services of their lobbyists to take their representatives out for that three martini lunch.
Wishing you all the best in your endeavors, in your career progression. Happy flying!
captjns
03-02-2014, 09:20 AM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 767-400
Posts: 797
Originally Posted by captjns
I don't know what stage of your career you are in other than a F/O with DAL. I entered the business a couple of years after Carter signed the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978.
The carrier I was with in 1991 wanted the employees to take pay cuts across the board. Now take note... management did not take any cuts in pay, benefits, or bonuses for that matter. Our competency is demonstrated every day we put our uniforms on. Not to mention three times a year, twice in the simulator, and once in the aircraft. Management, is highly rewarded by demonstrating incompetency by making decisions which ultimately lead the carrier into bankruptcy.
I made the choice to never work for an airline that would not provide adequate compensation, provide benefits and perks based on the services I have provided, and not treat it's pilots with disrespect.
A friend and colleague of mine told me about contract flying and instructing overseas. Back in the day, my experience overseas was to the crew hotel and a bit of a stroll around town, then back on the jet. I never thought of living overseas in an apartment paid by the carrier and the money, benefits and perks? Not bad either.
IMO salaries must be commensurate with skill sets upon the commencement of employment. Generally, one's skill sets increase in value to the company. That said compensation and benefits need to increase accordingly.
The choices I made were so I could continue to put food on the table, secure college education tuition at top universities for my children, pay the mortgage, and guaranty a fund for retirement which, all which was stripped by most US carriers... recommended by the MECs industry wide with the exception of a few carriers.
That said BigGuns, my entire family, myself, and now extended family sleep very well.
We all know petitions can be signed by pilots. Pilots can perform their information walks at the airports. MECs can send video messages via You Tube. But at the end of the day... what is accomplished? Nothing.
It's up to the airline's officers, if and when directed by the Board of Directors, to engage the services of their lobbyists to take their representatives out for that three martini lunch.
Wishing you all the best in your endeavors, in your career progression. Happy flying!
captjns
The carrier I was with in 1991 wanted the employees to take pay cuts across the board. Now take note... management did not take any cuts in pay, benefits, or bonuses for that matter. Our competency is demonstrated every day we put our uniforms on. Not to mention three times a year, twice in the simulator, and once in the aircraft. Management, is highly rewarded by demonstrating incompetency by making decisions which ultimately lead the carrier into bankruptcy.
I made the choice to never work for an airline that would not provide adequate compensation, provide benefits and perks based on the services I have provided, and not treat it's pilots with disrespect.
A friend and colleague of mine told me about contract flying and instructing overseas. Back in the day, my experience overseas was to the crew hotel and a bit of a stroll around town, then back on the jet. I never thought of living overseas in an apartment paid by the carrier and the money, benefits and perks? Not bad either.
IMO salaries must be commensurate with skill sets upon the commencement of employment. Generally, one's skill sets increase in value to the company. That said compensation and benefits need to increase accordingly.
The choices I made were so I could continue to put food on the table, secure college education tuition at top universities for my children, pay the mortgage, and guaranty a fund for retirement which, all which was stripped by most US carriers... recommended by the MECs industry wide with the exception of a few carriers.
That said BigGuns, my entire family, myself, and now extended family sleep very well.
We all know petitions can be signed by pilots. Pilots can perform their information walks at the airports. MECs can send video messages via You Tube. But at the end of the day... what is accomplished? Nothing.
It's up to the airline's officers, if and when directed by the Board of Directors, to engage the services of their lobbyists to take their representatives out for that three martini lunch.
Wishing you all the best in your endeavors, in your career progression. Happy flying!
captjns
Study the past if you would define the future. -Confucius
03-02-2014, 09:57 AM
#98
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Gillegan
Would you all please stop the chicken little chant of cabotage. If and when something even remotely starts to look like cabotage, then we can talk. There is no suggestion here that NAI or any other foreign carrier is going to be given rights to fly passengers between domestic destinations.
The only real question here is whether what NAI is doing REALLY circumvents the labor protection provisions of the Open Skies Treaty with the EU. The rest of ALPA's rant concerning "flags of convenience" is expressly provided for in the treaty that both sides signed. The IAA is an EASA regulator - not exactly some tin-pot, third-world aviation administration. I would be very surprised if they don't provide a comparable level of oversight to the FAA. An IAA inspector ramp checking an NAI airplane in LGW is no different from an FAA inspector based in Chicago checking a plane in DCA.
Regarding the US maritime industry, do a little research. It was a complicated issue that in addition to "flags of conveniences", also had periods of intense protectionism of the industry and bloated and unrealistic union work rules. I actually think that if our government gives in to the protectionist demands of ALPA and the legacy carriers, it will do more lasting damage to the industry than a small, creative European carrier.
The only real question here is whether what NAI is doing REALLY circumvents the labor protection provisions of the Open Skies Treaty with the EU. The rest of ALPA's rant concerning "flags of convenience" is expressly provided for in the treaty that both sides signed. The IAA is an EASA regulator - not exactly some tin-pot, third-world aviation administration. I would be very surprised if they don't provide a comparable level of oversight to the FAA. An IAA inspector ramp checking an NAI airplane in LGW is no different from an FAA inspector based in Chicago checking a plane in DCA.
Regarding the US maritime industry, do a little research. It was a complicated issue that in addition to "flags of conveniences", also had periods of intense protectionism of the industry and bloated and unrealistic union work rules. I actually think that if our government gives in to the protectionist demands of ALPA and the legacy carriers, it will do more lasting damage to the industry than a small, creative European carrier.
Lech Walesa went to prison over this kind of thing. He is also a national hero. Just sayin'
03-02-2014, 04:56 PM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 656
Lee=Lech? Maybe not, but the failure to see the danger to labor everywhere
(not just the US) is just amazing. Free market is only fair if the different entities compete under similar rules. It can be argued that my company would benefit (short term) by the harm caused to the legacies by NAI. The longterm danger is why I signed.
(not just the US) is just amazing. Free market is only fair if the different entities compete under similar rules. It can be argued that my company would benefit (short term) by the harm caused to the legacies by NAI. The longterm danger is why I signed.
03-03-2014, 06:19 AM
#100
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by tsquare
Call it chicken little if you want, but once it makes it into the halls of congress, it will be virtually assured. By then, it is too late. No, IMHO, Lee Moak should go to congress right now and let them know that if cabotage is even considered on capitol hill that nary a wheel at ALPA carriers will turn. We like to talk of leverage, well this is leverage, and it is indisputable.
Lech Walesa went to prison over this kind of thing. He is also a national hero. Just sayin'
Lech Walesa went to prison over this kind of thing. He is also a national hero. Just sayin'
There's no way Lee Moak is going to take any real action. ALPA is way too risk averse.
There is something ALPA could do right now if it was really serious about all these foreign airlines being an existential threat to US companies and US pilot jobs.
Start denying their pilots the jumpseat.
That might actually have some effect. But ALPA won't even consider such a simple thing as that. They don't like Norwegian or the Gulf carriers but they aren't going to do anything but send e-mails and start petitions. Moak will never take any actual concrete actions. Its just not important enough to risk the flow of cash into Herndon in any way.
If this is so important, then what the he|| are we waiting for?
Start a jumpseat war. That might actually effect operations for some of these carriers.
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