Jetblue anti-union tactics
03-23-2014, 07:38 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
Fins,
I'm going to throw this one out there. What really matters to the pilot group is salary, in the form of an hourly wage. A great concern that I have about ALPA is how the CBA will be negotiated to provide the pilot group with better protections and pay at the end of our 3 year PEA?
I see ALPA (MEC) getting strangled by management. It will be a "new" management team, looking to make a name and reputation with the union, that will threaten to reduce protections and benefits that we enjoy in today's PEA. They will drag the process over a long period of time, always promising and never negotiating. There will be mediation and arbitration galore. I foresee a CBA, 3-5 years from today, that affords the pilot group the SAME benefit package and wages that we have today. That's a major loss for the group. Stagnant wages for 3+ years (during negotiation) with the promise of another negotiation, mediation and arbitration immediately to follow the signed CBA.
How do we go forward with ALPA knowing this $hit-storm is going to happen?
I'm asking, not to be a doucher, but to hear some rationale to the question.
I'm going to throw this one out there. What really matters to the pilot group is salary, in the form of an hourly wage. A great concern that I have about ALPA is how the CBA will be negotiated to provide the pilot group with better protections and pay at the end of our 3 year PEA?
I see ALPA (MEC) getting strangled by management. It will be a "new" management team, looking to make a name and reputation with the union, that will threaten to reduce protections and benefits that we enjoy in today's PEA. They will drag the process over a long period of time, always promising and never negotiating. There will be mediation and arbitration galore. I foresee a CBA, 3-5 years from today, that affords the pilot group the SAME benefit package and wages that we have today. That's a major loss for the group. Stagnant wages for 3+ years (during negotiation) with the promise of another negotiation, mediation and arbitration immediately to follow the signed CBA.
How do we go forward with ALPA knowing this $hit-storm is going to happen?
I'm asking, not to be a doucher, but to hear some rationale to the question.
03-23-2014, 07:45 AM
#72
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 97
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
Fins,
I'm going to throw this one out there. What really matters to the pilot group is salary, in the form of an hourly wage. A great concern that I have about ALPA is how the CBA will be negotiated to provide the pilot group with better protections and pay at the end of our 3 year PEA?
I see ALPA (MEC) getting strangled by management. It will be a "new" management team, looking to make a name and reputation with the union, that will threaten to reduce protections and benefits that we enjoy in today's PEA. They will drag the process over a long period of time, always promising and never negotiating. There will be mediation and arbitration galore. I foresee a CBA, 3-5 years from today, that affords the pilot group the SAME benefit package and wages that we have today. That's a major loss for the group. Stagnant wages for 3+ years (during negotiation) with the promise of another negotiation, mediation and arbitration immediately to follow the signed CBA.
How do we go forward with ALPA knowing this $hit-storm is going to happen?
I'm asking, not to be a doucher, but to hear some rationale to the question.
I'm going to throw this one out there. What really matters to the pilot group is salary, in the form of an hourly wage. A great concern that I have about ALPA is how the CBA will be negotiated to provide the pilot group with better protections and pay at the end of our 3 year PEA?
I see ALPA (MEC) getting strangled by management. It will be a "new" management team, looking to make a name and reputation with the union, that will threaten to reduce protections and benefits that we enjoy in today's PEA. They will drag the process over a long period of time, always promising and never negotiating. There will be mediation and arbitration galore. I foresee a CBA, 3-5 years from today, that affords the pilot group the SAME benefit package and wages that we have today. That's a major loss for the group. Stagnant wages for 3+ years (during negotiation) with the promise of another negotiation, mediation and arbitration immediately to follow the signed CBA.
How do we go forward with ALPA knowing this $hit-storm is going to happen?
I'm asking, not to be a doucher, but to hear some rationale to the question.
That's not to say that salary doesn't need to be fixed significantly. But it's not an either-or. It's a both-and.
As to our negotiating position, at one of the meet and greets, I had an opportunity to talk for a little while with ALPA's chief negotiator, as well as a friend and senior DAL pilot who worked the last DAL contract.
The bottom line is that while negotiations are not a done-deal, nor am I star-eyed in thinking we will get everything we ask for. However, in this current environment, the JBALPA team will come in with significant strength.
The alternative is to wait for the good-wishes of the company, which have been evidenced by this overarching theme: Net Benefits decreasing over the past several years of unprecedented growth, revenue, and profit.
Make no mistake, if we vote down ALPA this time, there will be no 4th drive. And it will be interpreted as both a sign of weakness and disunity on the part of the pilots, and an overall satisfaction with the status quo of the DR.
Finally, when you hear rumblings of slight improvements in the DR, remember the Machiavellian principle that way to take over a country is to first advise the prince to go past your desired end-state, then replace that prince and make a few slight corrections. The people will then tend to be overwhelmingly happy with the "better" end state, which is actually better for your own goals.
03-23-2014, 09:23 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 474
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
I foresee a CBA, 3-5 years from today, that affords the pilot group the SAME benefit package and wages that we have today. That's a major loss for the group. Stagnant wages for 3+ years (during negotiation) with the promise of another negotiation, mediation and arbitration immediately to follow the signed CBA.
How do we go forward with ALPA knowing this $hit-storm is going to happen?
I'm asking, not to be a doucher, but to hear some rationale to the question.
How do we go forward with ALPA knowing this $hit-storm is going to happen?
I'm asking, not to be a doucher, but to hear some rationale to the question.
I mean, look at the guys over at United who just got a contract I think in early 2013. They negotiated for 3 YEARS, and that was a long time. But even then, it took that long because they had the additional complications of a merger with another pilot group, and supposedly there was some intra-union squabbling that caused part of that delay as well.
I would bet that *IF* you guys vote ALPA in, you'll get something within a year or two, at most. Plus, you have the added benefit of being a "smaller" airline. I doubt they would have released the United/CAL guys for a strike. You guys.....I bet you could get released.
Plus, unified pilot groups can apply pressure to a company to help speed things along. JetBlue prides itself on providing great customer service and being "different" then those mean, old legacies. If JetBlue doesn't want its pilot group to devolve into an angry "legacy," they can perhaps pursue a negotiation tact similar to what Delta management takes with DALPA rather than what Bedford takes with the IAM.
03-23-2014, 09:45 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: UAL Guppy CA
Posts: 233
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
Fins,
I'm going to throw this one out there. What really matters to the pilot group is salary, in the form of an hourly wage. A great concern that I have about ALPA is how the CBA will be negotiated to provide the pilot group with better protections and pay at the end of our 3 year PEA?
I see ALPA (MEC) getting strangled by management. It will be a "new" management team, looking to make a name and reputation with the union, that will threaten to reduce protections and benefits that we enjoy in today's PEA. They will drag the process over a long period of time, always promising and never negotiating. There will be mediation and arbitration galore. I foresee a CBA, 3-5 years from today, that affords the pilot group the SAME benefit package and wages that we have today. That's a major loss for the group. Stagnant wages for 3+ years (during negotiation) with the promise of another negotiation, mediation and arbitration immediately to follow the signed CBA.
How do we go forward with ALPA knowing this $hit-storm is going to happen?
I'm asking, not to be a doucher, but to hear some rationale to the question.
I'm going to throw this one out there. What really matters to the pilot group is salary, in the form of an hourly wage. A great concern that I have about ALPA is how the CBA will be negotiated to provide the pilot group with better protections and pay at the end of our 3 year PEA?
I see ALPA (MEC) getting strangled by management. It will be a "new" management team, looking to make a name and reputation with the union, that will threaten to reduce protections and benefits that we enjoy in today's PEA. They will drag the process over a long period of time, always promising and never negotiating. There will be mediation and arbitration galore. I foresee a CBA, 3-5 years from today, that affords the pilot group the SAME benefit package and wages that we have today. That's a major loss for the group. Stagnant wages for 3+ years (during negotiation) with the promise of another negotiation, mediation and arbitration immediately to follow the signed CBA.
How do we go forward with ALPA knowing this $hit-storm is going to happen?
I'm asking, not to be a doucher, but to hear some rationale to the question.
Do yourself a favor and reach out to any current committee member or PVC member. Ask them how they feel the company is currently "looking out" for our pilots. Just look at all of the things that have happened since the last union drive with the threat of another one coming: healthcare, premium pay gone, work rules changed via email, buffers changed at managements wave of the wand, high bid divisors, hotel budget being squeezed, dependability policy, and the list goes on. This is our very last chance at a union we know it, ALPA knows it, and management knows it. Just think how they will act towards us once there is NO threat of unionization. Pretty scary stuff. As far as drawn out negotiations I wouldn't worry about that there will be some posturing at the start but when the legacy's really ramp up hiring later this year and JB is losing 10-20 pilots a month the company will be forced to the table and quickly. I don't want ALPA because I hate the company I want ALPA because I like the company and would like it to be around well into the future. JB is very mismanaged just look at the 117 IROP. Once we have ALPA safety and scheduling committees up and running they can work in conjunction with the company utilizing their vast resources for better planning.
One funny note JB flight ops management attended an ALPA sponsored 117 conference to collaborate with all the other carrier's last fall. The funny thing is when they saw the PVC there they weren't happy. It's ok for the company to use 3rd parties just not their pilots. Thats the DR in a nutshell.
03-23-2014, 10:11 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,045
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
Fins,
I'm going to throw this one out there. What really matters to the pilot group is salary, in the form of an hourly wage.
I'm going to throw this one out there. What really matters to the pilot group is salary, in the form of an hourly wage.
WRONG! How short sighted of you!
Hourly rate at JB is sub par and even at that, represents a small part of the total package!
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
A great concern that I have about ALPA is how the CBA will be negotiated to provide the pilot group with better protections and pay at the end of our 3 year PEA?
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
I see ALPA (MEC) getting strangled by management. It will be a "new" management team, looking to make a name and reputation with the union, that will threaten to reduce protections and benefits that we enjoy in today's PEA.
There are NO protections and the benefits are below average. What exactly is it you "enjoy" in your PEA? Way to look foolish among your peers dude! There is NOTHING in your PEA that is to be "enjoyed" when compared to what your peers have!
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
They will drag the process over a long period of time, always promising and never negotiating. There will be mediation and arbitration galore. I foresee a CBA, 3-5 years from today, that affords the pilot group the SAME benefit package and wages that we have today. That's a major loss for the group. Stagnant wages for 3+ years (during negotiation) with the promise of another negotiation, mediation and arbitration immediately to follow the signed CBA.
This Pilot group has been "begging" for 15 years. The current sub-par comp and benefits are ALREADY locked in for yet another 3 years. And, you think the ability to hold the ELT to bargaining in good faith FOR THE FIRST TIME will come as a major loss for the group?
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
How do we go forward with ALPA knowing this $hit-storm is going to happen?
The answer is you HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE for the first time in their history. You vote yes and hold them to bargaining in good faith.
I'll close by saying your posts are full of contradictions. You are trying to "appear" to be sympathetic to the Pilot group's cause while continually slamming ALPA and trying to fight a case for the Direct Relationship.
I thought Ford and Harrison and MWW Group were bad.
You Sir are a Blue Juicer in Major Airline Pilots clothing and an obvious no vote.
Like Ford and Harrison and MWW Group, you only make a fool of yourself to anyone with half a brain.
T
03-23-2014, 03:09 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Passed out in my hammock
Posts: 299
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
Fins,
I'm going to throw this one out there. What really matters to the pilot group is salary, in the form of an hourly wage. A great concern that I have about ALPA is how the CBA will be negotiated to provide the pilot group with better protections and pay at the end of our 3 year PEA?
I see ALPA (MEC) getting strangled by management. It will be a "new" management team, looking to make a name and reputation with the union, that will threaten to reduce protections and benefits that we enjoy in today's PEA. They will drag the process over a long period of time, always promising and never negotiating. There will be mediation and arbitration galore. I foresee a CBA, 3-5 years from today, that affords the pilot group the SAME benefit package and wages that we have today. That's a major loss for the group. Stagnant wages for 3+ years (during negotiation) with the promise of another negotiation, mediation and arbitration immediately to follow the signed CBA.
How do we go forward with ALPA knowing this $hit-storm is going to happen?
I'm asking, not to be a doucher, but to hear some rationale to the question.
I'm going to throw this one out there. What really matters to the pilot group is salary, in the form of an hourly wage. A great concern that I have about ALPA is how the CBA will be negotiated to provide the pilot group with better protections and pay at the end of our 3 year PEA?
I see ALPA (MEC) getting strangled by management. It will be a "new" management team, looking to make a name and reputation with the union, that will threaten to reduce protections and benefits that we enjoy in today's PEA. They will drag the process over a long period of time, always promising and never negotiating. There will be mediation and arbitration galore. I foresee a CBA, 3-5 years from today, that affords the pilot group the SAME benefit package and wages that we have today. That's a major loss for the group. Stagnant wages for 3+ years (during negotiation) with the promise of another negotiation, mediation and arbitration immediately to follow the signed CBA.
How do we go forward with ALPA knowing this $hit-storm is going to happen?
I'm asking, not to be a doucher, but to hear some rationale to the question.
There has been a lot of good information put into the replies to your post. I'm not sure how much I can add on top of that, but here goes:
1. Pay SHOULD NOT be the number one priority. While we are still below average (when using the peer-set agreed to before our management unilaterally changed it in violate of written protocol), pay is not our worst shortcoming. To be honest with you, of the complaints I have, pay is not at the top. I put job protection, healthcare, and work rules higher on the list of things that need to be improved.
2. How long will it take to negotiate a contract? I wish I knew. Think of it this way - if we had a passing vote two and a half years ago, we might have a contract already or we would be finalizing one right now. Unless you plan to leave jetblue in the next few years, you need to think long term. I hope to be here for the next 15-20 years so taking a few years to get a solid contract is a small price to pay.
3. How would our ALPA-backed MEC be strangled by management any more than our current committees are? A friend of mine who has been on one of our committees for years finally decided to vote yes because, in his view, they can't get anything done quickly now anyway so why not formalize the process, and get the assets, protections, and benefits that ALPA offers? Our pay and benefits are already going to be "stagnant" for the next two and half years anyway. In case you have any doubt - We WILL get the 3.5% raises each of the next two years since we continue operating under the PEA as it is written.
4. We are already in a $hit-storm. Our management violates agreed to procedures and there is no accountability. The PVC is already looking into mediation because of this. We NEED the benefits of a CBA enforceable under the RLA and we need a ALPAs resources to get us going.
Being a mil guy like you, it took me a long time for me to jump the fence and be pro-CBA. I tried to hang on to the dream that a "direct relationship" is better than having a union. It is not! Remember - It's just business. Dave hires his third party experts to assist him with labor relation matters and even to negotiate his own contract. If it's okay for him to do, it's okay for us to do. Please vote YES. This is our last chance.
03-23-2014, 04:01 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,045
Originally Posted by Wildflyin
Alvrb, insults and jabs. .. way to make people want to join your opinion and vote union! Keep the insults coming, that'll get more people to join the cause! Seriously. ..wow.
No insults or jabs. Just straight talk with no sugar coating.
The overall compensation package is below average at JB and this is due to the "industry defying" non union status.
I do think one comes across as foolish when attempting to "show boat" on a forum of Major Airline Pilots, especially given the sub-par nature of JB's PEA.
I've seen him fight a case for the DR many a time. I personally think he's a MGMT plant.
If your employer gives you a Ford Taurus for a company car while all your peers have 7 series BMWs with premium insurance, and BMWs are the norm for your profession, are you really gonna brag about your sub-par Ford and how good you've got it?
T
Last edited by alvrb211; 03-23-2014 at 04:25 PM.
03-23-2014, 04:38 PM
#80
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Originally Posted by alvrb211
No insults or jabs. Just straight talk with no sugar coating.
The overall compensation package is below average at JB and this is due to the "industry defying" non union status.
I do think one comes across as foolish when attempting to "show boat" on a forum of Major Airline Pilots, especially given the sub-par nature of JB's PEA.
I've seen him fight a case for the DR many a time. I personally think he's a MGMT plant.
If your employer gives you a Ford Taurus for a company car while all your peers have 7 series BMWs with premium insurance, and this is the norm for your profession, are you really gonna brag about your sub-par Ford and how good you've got it?
T
The overall compensation package is below average at JB and this is due to the "industry defying" non union status.
I do think one comes across as foolish when attempting to "show boat" on a forum of Major Airline Pilots, especially given the sub-par nature of JB's PEA.
I've seen him fight a case for the DR many a time. I personally think he's a MGMT plant.
If your employer gives you a Ford Taurus for a company car while all your peers have 7 series BMWs with premium insurance, and this is the norm for your profession, are you really gonna brag about your sub-par Ford and how good you've got it?
T
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