Jetblue anti-union tactics
03-30-2014, 10:31 AM
#231
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by sailingfun
One thing you need to keep in mind is that the RLA forbids a national union. ALPA is a association. They will provide assistance and a framework for your union which will be JetBlueAlpa. Your union will operate as it's own entity so it will be as good or bad as the people you elect to office. Also keep in mind ALPA does not control the election process. The NMB handles that. You should get a card shortly.
But don't be confused by the name -- ALPA is a national union. The RLA recognizes Collective Bargaining Agents -- the names are semantics. Furthermore, the elected pilot representatives at Jetblue will influence ALPA national as members of the Executive Council, Executive Board, and Board of Directors. Any Jetblue member in good standing will be eligible to run for national office as well.
ALPA National doesn't send a team of outsiders to your home turf to speak for you and save the day. Your ALPA leaders are already in your cockpits. ALPA will provide the resources to make them successful working for you.
.
03-30-2014, 10:49 AM
#232
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by cmesoar
Here is a question. I really have not heard any support from DAL or UAL. These are supposed to be in our peer set but if we vote in this association, are they going to look down on us from their top group A? ALPA has given me NO information on how we will be placed in their priority.
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
DALPA and FedEx ALPA could care less about Hawaiian, Jetblue, Alaska or Spirit. Spirit is a hero because they went on strike and won a sub-peer set average contract.
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
ALPA will gladly pay for ... However, you pay for this service. 1.9%. ... to a junior FO it could be the tuition for his wife's nursing school.
I paid for my wife's nursing school tuition years ago, and my daughter just graduated last December. I'm at the top pay scale at FedEx, and my last year's ALPA dues wouldn't come close to paying even a semester of nursing school tuition. ALPA dues for a junior FO at Jetblue might cover the cost of a textbook.
.
03-30-2014, 11:36 AM
#233
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by cmesoar
... if we don't use our current silo system for proper seniority representation, we will fail. Or at least the junior members is suffer.
Originally Posted by shiznit
You can have a CA/FO rep in every base or do it in blocks of seniority. Each method has positives and negatives.
Your elected reps will construct a Policy Manual and implement the representative structure, but it must be equitable and comply with the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws. 80+ years of refining the C&BL has ensured a solid system that represents members fairly.
Originally Posted by pilotpayne
Silo system....nothing else.
We have one chance at this and I don't want a bunch of senior bus guys from FLL running everything.
I voted for ALPA but I really hope we keep the silo system.
Originally Posted by pilotpayne
We do have many FO's who could hold Captain, so while I understand the Captain/FO rep deal I like the silo system better. I feel it offers a really good balance.
Originally Posted by Fins Up
I like the silo system too. No reason we can't set up our committees that way.
Originally Posted by Flyby1206
+1
Another vote for the silo system.
Originally Posted by cmesoar
Fairly? The current Association system is not going to work here. Like the others say we have senior FOs in every base. I don't care if it has been 80 or 8 years, the current Association system just won't cut it here. The Junior members get stepped on every time in ALPAs configuration. The current silo system or something very similar will work. If we vote the Association in and we get unequal representation of all the pilots on property, I will be on board to de-certify them after we get our first CBA. I want a union that represents ALL the pilots at JB, not an association that collects dues and favors the senior members.
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
I fully expect our silo system to remain. I will be VERY ****ed off if it is not.
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
As usual, Payne is correct. Silo system only.
Now just wait until after the vote and a group of our pilots that demands the more traditional setup, of course for THIER own benefit. Hope I'm wrong. Really hope I'm wrong.
Originally Posted by Fly4hire
By SILO I'm assuming you mean block representation? The ALPA Constitution & By Laws provide for that, and it has advantages for largely single domicile airlines.
Originally Posted by pilotpayne
Silo system, what we have now = a seniority block system.
Before Fedex Pilots Assoication (FPA) merged with ALPA, there was only one representation structure allowed by the Constitution and By-Laws (C&B-L). FPA used a seniority block system of representation which more fairly represented pilots in a very large domicile compared to their peers in very small domiciles. As part of the FPA/ALPA merger, the C&B-L was changed to allow Block Representatives. Today, our largest domicile has 8 Blocks of pilots arranged by seniority. Except for pilots who are Flex Instructors, Line Check Airmen, Standards Check Airmen, etc., the number of pilots in the domicile is divided by 8 (not an arbitrary number, but a number that is determined and adjusted according the size of the domicile), and representation blocks are arranged according to seniority. The 400 most senior are in Block 1, the next 400 most senior are in Block 2, and so on. That gives us 8 Block Reps in Memphis, where the previous ALPA system would have given us a Captain Rep, and First Officer Rep, and, when we still had them, as Second Officer Rep. With roll call votes, 2 Representatives could pretty much run the show while ANC, LAX, HKG, and CGN Reps were along for the ride. Under the Seniority Block Representative system we use, the most junior pilots get the same vote as the most senior, and the 120 folks in Hong Kong get a fair voice and a fair shake.
I think the Seniority Block System is what I hear Jetblue pilots asking for. If not, I think ALPA should be receptive to changing C&B-L to adapt to fair systems of representation. For what it's worth, I think the story at USAir would have been much different had the Seniority Block system been in place. The more equitable distribution of voting power would have prevented the concentration of power in "Super Reps" which allowed them to drag the entire group down the road to where they are today.
This is an example of change for the better. New blood, new ideas, and new energy are good for the health of the organization, and for the success of all of its members. This is not your Daddy's ALPA.
Oh, and one more thing ... It's a common complaint that ALPA is only concerned about the senior pilot. I hear it a lot from people who say they're too busy to participate. They've got kids to raise, college to pay for, all sorts of family commitments to attend to. Some day, when they're not so busy, they promise they'll step up to the plate and serve ... when they're senior.
Go figger ....
03-30-2014, 12:58 PM
#234
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,879
Originally Posted by Fly4hire
No one said over represented, just fairly, and occasionally more. Keep on hating on unions. Management is you friend.
Keep saying absurd things.
03-30-2014, 01:03 PM
#235
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,879
Originally Posted by TonyC
I don't know exactly what a "silo" system is, but the context clues I'm picking up lead me to believe it is a system of representation based more on seniority than seat status or base. If I'm mistaken, I'm sure there will be a race to post a correction.
Before Fedex Pilots Assoication (FPA) merged with ALPA, there was only one representation structure allowed by the Constitution and By-Laws (C&B-L). FPA used a seniority block system of representation which more fairly represented pilots in a very large domicile compared to their peers in very small domiciles. As part of the FPA/ALPA merger, the C&B-L was changed to allow Block Representatives. Today, our largest domicile has 8 Blocks of pilots arranged by seniority. Except for pilots who are Flex Instructors, Line Check Airmen, Standards Check Airmen, etc., the number of pilots in the domicile is divided by 8 (not an arbitrary number, but a number that is determined and adjusted according the size of the domicile), and representation blocks are arranged according to seniority. The 400 most senior are in Block 1, the next 400 most senior are in Block 2, and so on. That gives us 8 Block Reps in Memphis, where the previous ALPA system would have given us a Captain Rep, and First Officer Rep, and, when we still had them, as Second Officer Rep. With roll call votes, 2 Representatives could pretty much run the show while ANC, LAX, HKG, and CGN Reps were along for the ride. Under the Seniority Block Representative system we use, the most junior pilots get the same vote as the most senior, and the 120 folks in Hong Kong get a fair voice and a fair shake.
I think the Seniority Block System is what I hear Jetblue pilots asking for. If not, I think ALPA should be receptive to changing C&B-L to adapt to fair systems of representation. For what it's worth, I think the story at USAir would have been much different had the Seniority Block system been in place. The more equitable distribution of voting power would have prevented the concentration of power in "Super Reps" which allowed them to drag the entire group down the road to where they are today.
This is an example of change for the better. New blood, new ideas, and new energy are good for the health of the organization, and for the success of all of its members. This is not your Daddy's ALPA.
Oh, and one more thing ... It's a common complaint that ALPA is only concerned about the senior pilot. I hear it a lot from people who say they're too busy to participate. They've got kids to raise, college to pay for, all sorts of family commitments to attend to. Some day, when they're not so busy, they promise they'll step up to the plate and serve ... when they're senior. Go figger ...
.
Before Fedex Pilots Assoication (FPA) merged with ALPA, there was only one representation structure allowed by the Constitution and By-Laws (C&B-L). FPA used a seniority block system of representation which more fairly represented pilots in a very large domicile compared to their peers in very small domiciles. As part of the FPA/ALPA merger, the C&B-L was changed to allow Block Representatives. Today, our largest domicile has 8 Blocks of pilots arranged by seniority. Except for pilots who are Flex Instructors, Line Check Airmen, Standards Check Airmen, etc., the number of pilots in the domicile is divided by 8 (not an arbitrary number, but a number that is determined and adjusted according the size of the domicile), and representation blocks are arranged according to seniority. The 400 most senior are in Block 1, the next 400 most senior are in Block 2, and so on. That gives us 8 Block Reps in Memphis, where the previous ALPA system would have given us a Captain Rep, and First Officer Rep, and, when we still had them, as Second Officer Rep. With roll call votes, 2 Representatives could pretty much run the show while ANC, LAX, HKG, and CGN Reps were along for the ride. Under the Seniority Block Representative system we use, the most junior pilots get the same vote as the most senior, and the 120 folks in Hong Kong get a fair voice and a fair shake.
I think the Seniority Block System is what I hear Jetblue pilots asking for. If not, I think ALPA should be receptive to changing C&B-L to adapt to fair systems of representation. For what it's worth, I think the story at USAir would have been much different had the Seniority Block system been in place. The more equitable distribution of voting power would have prevented the concentration of power in "Super Reps" which allowed them to drag the entire group down the road to where they are today.
This is an example of change for the better. New blood, new ideas, and new energy are good for the health of the organization, and for the success of all of its members. This is not your Daddy's ALPA.
Oh, and one more thing ... It's a common complaint that ALPA is only concerned about the senior pilot. I hear it a lot from people who say they're too busy to participate. They've got kids to raise, college to pay for, all sorts of family commitments to attend to. Some day, when they're not so busy, they promise they'll step up to the plate and serve ... when they're senior.
Go figger ....
03-30-2014, 01:48 PM
#236
SDQ Base Chief
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 320 CA
Posts: 5,581
Silo system is strictly seniority based. Silo 1 is seniority numbers 1-300, Silo 2 is 301-600, (just using rough numbers)
It removes the CA against FO dynamic, and the base vs base dynamic "ohh JFK didn't vote for XYZ but BOS did! All JFK pilots are jerks!"
It removes the CA against FO dynamic, and the base vs base dynamic "ohh JFK didn't vote for XYZ but BOS did! All JFK pilots are jerks!"
03-30-2014, 04:27 PM
#237
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by TonyC
P-3Bubba, you could not be more wrong. Nobody in ALPA can survive alone -- we all depend on each other to further our profession. I can guarantee you that we of FedEx ALPA welcome Jetblue with wide open arms and look forward to your representatives participating in October's election of National Officers..
For the JB and others (Tony knows this story) The link below is a history of the Fedex Pilots and their journey from being unorganized, to joining ALPA, to being divided and voting out ALPA, to rejoining ALPA after realizing the mistake it was to leave. 43 pages of bullet points but very informative.
My old man is a FDX pilot and I still learned a lot from reading this.
https://crewroom.alpa.org/fdx/Deskto...cumentID=19085
You don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate. You negotiate based on pilot unity.
03-30-2014, 04:30 PM
#238
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by Flyby1206
Silo system is strictly seniority based. Silo 1 is seniority numbers 1-300, Silo 2 is 301-600, (just using rough numbers)
It removes the CA against FO dynamic, and the base vs base dynamic "ohh JFK didn't vote for XYZ but BOS did! All JFK pilots are jerks!"
It removes the CA against FO dynamic, and the base vs base dynamic "ohh JFK didn't vote for XYZ but BOS did! All JFK pilots are jerks!"
Say I'm an LGB pilot who has to go to the CPO and my rep is in BOS... How good a job will he be able to do if he can't be in LGB for my hearing?
Plusses and minuses to every choice.....
03-30-2014, 04:32 PM
#239
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 524
Originally Posted by shiznit
Well said TonyC.
For the JB and others (Tony knows this story) The link below is a history of the Fedex Pilots and their journey from being unorganized, to joining ALPA, to being divided and voting out ALPA, to rejoining ALPA after realizing the mistake it was to leave. 43 pages of bullet points but very informative.
My old man is a FDX pilot and I still learned a lot from reading this.
https://crewroom.alpa.org/fdx/Deskto...cumentID=19085
You don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate. You negotiate based on pilot unity.
For the JB and others (Tony knows this story) The link below is a history of the Fedex Pilots and their journey from being unorganized, to joining ALPA, to being divided and voting out ALPA, to rejoining ALPA after realizing the mistake it was to leave. 43 pages of bullet points but very informative.
My old man is a FDX pilot and I still learned a lot from reading this.
https://crewroom.alpa.org/fdx/Deskto...cumentID=19085
You don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate. You negotiate based on pilot unity.
03-30-2014, 04:58 PM
#240
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by txbusdriver
During the last drive this was used a selling point for ALPA. Unfortunately that was the problem, you had to try and sell it. The FedEx story is a great story and cautionary tale for this group but you can only lead a donkey to water....
ALPA and its benefits literally put my brother and I through college.
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