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Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1725457)
Speaking for civilians, we aren't sure we get the significance of the drunken Air Force rituals, or swearing at superior officers; WGAF? We had frat brothers who were out of control, but that is because they weren't getting laid and had nothing better to do.
Another difference, possibly, is that many Air Force pilots a year or two removed from UPT would be fighting in combat, dropping bombs and killing people while being shot at. A little more sphincter-tightening than flying an ILS in a Cessna. |
Some of it was blowing off steam. The fact is it's dangerous. All of us had close calls. It's unavoidable.
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Originally Posted by buzzpat
(Post 1725964)
Maybe a difference would be that most USAF pilots had already gone to college, had similar frat experiences and then went to UPT. We're not all Academy grads. Virginia Tech here.
Another difference, possibly, is that many Air Force pilots a year or two removed from UPT would be fighting in combat, dropping bombs and killing people while being shot at. A little more sphincter-tightening than flying an ILS in a Cessna. Never been shot at and never dropped a bomb on anything more significant than the crew lounge toilet. However, I have had plenty of sphincter-tightening moments flying a rundown Baron full of cancelled checks...or flying Lifeflight missions in less than ideal (or legal) conditions... or trying to deliver the freight to some crap ass 3rd world city by flying some crap ass cobbled together NDB approach in the middle of the night just to spend the night in the airplane waiting for the morning's load out. Almost everyone here has made their bones one way or another. Call me cranky, but the civ/mil dick measuring contests are just getting old. Why the F does it matter whether we call it "Class Drop", "Class Assignment", or "Sorry, Dude, enjoy your Newark layovers on the 717" Honestly, who gives a sh!t. |
Originally Posted by FmrFreightDog
(Post 1726083)
You've obviously never watched me try to fly an ILS in a Cessna... Talk about a "come to Jesus" experience.... :)
Never been shot at and never dropped a bomb on anything more significant than the crew lounge toilet. However, I have had plenty of sphincter-tightening moments flying a rundown Baron full of cancelled checks...or flying Lifeflight missions in less than ideal (or legal) conditions... or trying to deliver the freight to some crap ass 3rd world city by flying some crap ass cobbled together NDB approach in the middle of the night just to spend the night in the airplane waiting for the morning's load out. Almost everyone here has made their bones one way or another. Call me cranky, but the civ/mil dick measuring contests are just getting old. Why the F does it matter whether we call it "Class Drop", "Class Assignment", or "Sorry, Dude, enjoy your Newark layovers on the 717" Honestly, who gives a sh!t. Go back and read the thread bro. |
Originally Posted by buzzpat
(Post 1725964)
A little more sphincter-tightening than flying an ILS in a Cessna.
You weren't even there, man! |
Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 1726089)
I wasn't offended before, but golly, I am now! Have YOU ever flown an ILS in a Cessna?
You weren't even there, man! |
Well, alright then.
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Assignment Night, Drop Night, wow, what great memories. My own drop night was fantastic, plenty of alcohol, shenanigans and things I may never do again.
Once I became a Flight Commander at UPT, I dreaded Assignment Night and looked forward to it with equal measure. Having a hand in the future of someone's life for the next 10 years is a humbling experience, the drama of watching the excitement and utter collapse was one of the most interesting things of my time in the USAF. I still remember the first guy to get an UAV out of Assignment Night, the guy looked like he had been sentenced to death by a jury of his peers, but fully accepted his situation knowing he had "earned" it. Even still, it was heartbreaking. Assignment Night/Drop Night was the culmination of greater than 52 weeks of intense, gratifying and excruciating work (college, applying to UPT, IFT, medicals before that), the chance to blow off some steam should've never been taken away. I fear in today's military it has been. |
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1725457)
Speaking for civilians, we aren't sure we get the significance of the drunken Air Force rituals, or swearing at superior officers; WGAF? We had frat brothers who were out of control, but that is because they weren't getting laid and had nothing better to do..
The thing about Military Flight Training and Drop Nighte is, once you get your wings, they OWN YOU! Unlike my soft Civilian Pilot life before joining the AF, you can't just walk away if you don't like what you get, and go look for another job flying for someone else. You have to perform, or your going to be in a missile silo in Turky for 6 years! Drop night is the MOST IMPORTANT NIGHT OF YOUR LIFE!! Why? Because it determines your career path, and most likely the rest of your life while in the Military. Your first assignment lasts about 3 years, kiss all the right asses, maybe you get a better assignment after that. There is NOTHING you can do about it and it's a lot like Russian Roulette. Fighter? Heavy? IP? Where?? On the beach? Or in Europe? Or please no God... NOT a B52 to Minot! :eek::eek::D That's why we get drunk, that's why we blow it out, it's your last chance. The next day you are going to have to wake up and face the reality of your assignment....for the rest of your career. It's a lot more important than any Frat party, or which RJ you got. |
Originally Posted by FmrFreightDog
(Post 1726083)
Never been shot at and never dropped a bomb on anything more significant than the crew lounge toilet. However, I have had plenty of sphincter-tightening moments flying a rundown Baron full of cancelled checks...or flying Lifeflight missions in less than ideal (or legal) conditions... or trying to deliver the freight to some crap ass 3rd world city by flying some crap ass cobbled together NDB approach in the middle of the night just to spend the night in the airplane waiting for the morning's load out.
We don't all have similar "bones." Please don't try and compare my experience to yours. It's not the same and you cannot understand that. At our current airline, we're all equal. That's great. But don't assume you know what the military guys have gone through and experienced. Just don't. I guess its a generational thing. You guys are more clueless than I could ever have imagined. |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1726106)
That's why we get drunk, that's why we blow it out, it's your last chance. The next day you are going to have to wake up and face the reality of your assignment....for the rest of your career.
It's a lot more important than any Frat party, or which RJ you got. Just joking...I get it. |
Hehe, my drop night was pretty tame in comparison to these ones. Matter of fact my entire UPT class was kind of lacking in the "fun" department. It was like pulling TEETH to get 23 year old guys to spend a day in Tuscaloosa at the biggest party in the south during game day. I guess the academy does weird things to your sociability...
"nah, sorry I gotta study my T-38 boldface in case I track there in 3 months..." "nah, we're gonna stay and play beer pong and talk shop for 3 hours this saturday. Alabama Vs. LSU is not on my radar..." "who needs to talk to girls when there are limitations to study?!" |
Originally Posted by contrails
(Post 1726113)
Then why is the civilian a/c assignment day nicknamed the same thing? ;)
Just joking...I get it. |
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1725457)
Speaking for civilians, we aren't sure we get the significance of the drunken Air Force rituals, or swearing at superior officers; WGAF?
May I suggest you try the forum over on autoerotica. com? :D these stories are fantastic! |
Originally Posted by Extenda
(Post 1726116)
Hehe, my drop night was pretty tame in comparison to these ones. Matter of fact my entire UPT class was kind of lacking in the "fun" department. It was like pulling TEETH to get 23 year old guys to spend a day in Tuscaloosa at the biggest party in the south during game day. I guess the academy does weird things to your sociability...
"nah, sorry I gotta study my T-38 boldface in case I track there in 3 months..." "nah, we're gonna stay and play beer pong and talk shop for 3 hours this saturday. Alabama Vs. LSU is not on my radar..." "who needs to talk to girls when there are limitations to study?!" |
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[QUOTE=FmrFreightDog;1726083]
Almost everyone here has made their bones one way or another. Call me cranky, but the civ/mil dick measuring contests are just getting old. FFD: Reading the thread, I don't get the impression anyone's measuring anything. The former military and af guys (:D), are merely reminiscing about a significant milestone in our lives and careers. As has been mentioned, the training was very structured and time restricted. The Air Force guys all started and finished as a class; the Navy/Marines, not so much. On the Navy side, we finished and got our 'Fleet' orders just before getting our wings. We didn't have a 'drop,' but the parties after wingings were GREAT! For the most part, they were celebrations and graduations. Life-long friends were made that you'd come across 'in the fleet', on a cross-country at the Miramar O-Club, or after getting hired at an airline. Sadly, we also lost friends... The point is, much of the what, where, how, and with whom was institutionalized. After each accomplishment, recognition, reward, and celebration occurred. It's a common thread... and it's ours. Carry on... DFW |
Originally Posted by buzzpat
(Post 1726112)
Are you really comparing flying cancelled checks with flying an F-117 over Baghdad during the first night of Desert Storm, or the helo guys that flew SEAL Team 6 into Osama bin Laden's compound in Pakistan, or my airdropping of the 82nd Airborne into Grenada while AAA guns were raking the airplane? Really? Were you shot at? Did you watch your buddies get shot down and die? Did you have the American flag on your shoulder and your fellow soldiers depending on you to not eff up? Really?
We don't all have similar "bones." Please don't try and compare my experience to yours. It's not the same and you cannot understand that. At our current airline, we're all equal. That's great. But don't assume you know what the military guys have gone through and experienced. Just don't. I guess its a generational thing. You guys are more clueless than I could ever have imagined. Most of the sh!t I did flying single pilot cargo scared me way worse than anything I did in the Army. You are way out of line with your assumptions, Buzz. |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1726121)
Wow, that must have sucked. The best thing about Del Rio was, there were no outside distractions, so we all had to suffer together. BUT...we only had one zoomie in our class, and he was great!
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Originally Posted by FmrFreightDog
(Post 1726130)
Wow... Considering I'm the roughly the same age as you are and spent several years in the Army as an 11A before cycling back through the civilian aviation world to get the rest of my ratings, you might want to chill the F out.
Most of the sh!t I did flying single pilot cargo scared me way worse than anything I did in the Army. You are way out of line with your assumptions, Buzz. |
Originally Posted by buzzpat
(Post 1726133)
Then you should know better.
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I thought this was about Drop Night, and how it got it's name...
No dick measuring please, I'll lose, just ask my wife! |
Originally Posted by buzzpat
(Post 1726131)
Same at CBM. One Zoomie. Great guy! Wanted a fighter, got an OV-10 to Sembach. Laughed my ass off.
Very humble, you'd never know it, he never talked about it. He put in 23+ years active duty and then got out, hired at DL in... 2010. ;) |
Wow that escalated quickly.
To the military folks who have enlightened us on what 'the drop' is, thanks for your service. I've know a few people who got just what they wanted, a few that didn't make it through and more than a few instructors and back seaters. They're all good people. Zoomies, mids, and cadets on the Hudson are all a little off but I'd suppose you have to be. The class drop after civilian training pretty much has us all being FAIPs, for better or worse. Later in the airline world, it's rather unimportant. Class seniority is usually based on age or something arbitrary not how well you did. And if you didn't get what you wanted its a few months to a couple years to get what you did. But you can always tell who has lots of turboprop time. They stand a little too close when you're talking. |
Ach, for FFS, let's not screw up a cool thread with the same old tired Mil vs Civ crap. Two different worlds, & we're better for getting to fly with people who have experience in each.
Love flying with Mil guys, hearing about IPT, drop night, the old squadrons, the legendary parties, getting shot at, making history, the bros that didn't make it home. Just don't make it "all about me" and disrespect civ guys, and we can get along great. Love flying with Civ guys, hearing about the crappy old rustbuckets they learned to fly in, the students who tried to kill them, flying night freight in crap wx, scheming their way into that first airline job, the pals that didn't make it home. Just don't make it "all about me" and rag on the mil guys, and we can get along great. Carry on with the funny stories. Speaking of which...
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1725303)
Yeah, as a 4,500hr. ATP rated civilian going through AF UPT, I always thought it was funny they would spend more time briefing than flying! 90 minute brief for a one hour flight! :eek:
One day my T37 IP asked me, "So...when you were flying freight...what did you guys brief?" I said, "Nothing, we got in the plane, we started it up, and we went flying..." He said, "Well, what about the weather? Didn't you brief the weather, and the approaches?" I said, "Nope, we didn't give a sh!t what the weather was, we just went. We had to go anyway or we'd get fired. If the weather at the destination was bad...well...we found it anyway." He said, "So you busted Mins?" I said, "No, we just found the runway and landed." Tower would sometimes ask us, "What's the ceiling out there?" and we'd answer, "It's right AT mins..." :D (Freight dog code for...it's bleak) Another Guard Guy with 3,500hrs. and a DC 8 copilot prior (Rich Air, out of MIA, flying 'stuff' to South America), who was in my UPT class said of AF Pilot Training, "The SOF keeps a piece of blue plastic behind his desk. Every morning he holds it up to the sky, and if the colors don't match it's 'no solo's to the areas'! I just hope that when the Russians come, the weather is good!" |
You guys crack me up! As a former military person with civilian only flight time, I find these DM contests hysterical. Although, they eventually just lead to head shaking. Having lived in both worlds gives you a unique perspective.
FWIW, there are worse training enviroments than UPT. |
Originally Posted by buzzpat
(Post 1726112)
Are you really comparing flying cancelled checks with flying an F-117 over Baghdad during the first night of Desert Storm, or the helo guys that flew SEAL Team 6 into Osama bin Laden's compound in Pakistan, or my airdropping of the 82nd Airborne into Grenada while AAA guns were raking the airplane? Really? Were you shot at? Did you watch your buddies get shot down and die? Did you have the American flag on your shoulder and your fellow soldiers depending on you to not eff up? Really?
We don't all have similar "bones." Please don't try and compare my experience to yours. It's not the same and you cannot understand that. At our current airline, we're all equal. That's great. But don't assume you know what the military guys have gone through and experienced. Just don't. I guess its a generational thing. You guys are more clueless than I could ever have imagined. |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1726106)
Bar, with all due respect, you don't get it, because you never suffered the scrutiny of going through Military Flight Training.
The thing about Military Flight Training and Drop Nighte is, once you get your wings, they OWN YOU! Unlike my soft Civilian Pilot life before joining the AF, you can't just walk away if you don't like what you get, and go look for another job flying for someone else. You have to perform, or your going to be in a missile silo in Turky for 6 years! Drop night is the MOST IMPORTANT NIGHT OF YOUR LIFE!! Why? Because it determines your career path, and most likely the rest of your life while in the Military. Your first assignment lasts about 3 years, kiss all the right asses, maybe you get a better assignment after that. There is NOTHING you can do about it and it's a lot like Russian Roulette. Fighter? Heavy? IP? Where?? On the beach? Or in Europe? Or please no God... NOT a B52 to Minot! :eek::eek::D That's why we get drunk, that's why we blow it out, it's your last chance. The next day you are going to have to wake up and face the reality of your assignment....for the rest of your career. It's a lot more important than any Frat party, or which RJ you got. |
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...Killington.jpg
Bucking Bar the unity builder. :cool: Good grief. No one said or implied anything about mil/civ comparisons until you did. If you don't like stories about drop night or UPT buffoonery in general, you are not obligated to read them. |
Purple,
"Unity" isn't defined as whether you and I like each other. "Unity" is one bargaining agent having exclusive control over the Company's productive capacity so they can negotiate from a position of strength and obtain the best pay and working conditions for our labor. You make fun of unity because you do not understand what it is, or how you benefit. |
Too bad you guys missed the B-17 and B-24 stories, there was a MIA guy who was in Eagle Squadron. Cigarettes and Johnny Walker diet. MIA/SFO seemed twenty minutes long...
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Originally Posted by badflaps
(Post 1726384)
Too bad you guys missed the B-17 and B-24 stories, there was a MIA guy who was in Eagle Squadron. Cigarettes and Johnny Walker diet. MIA/SFO seemed twenty minutes long...
Crazy amount of crap those guys went through, and the death rates...even in training! :eek: http://www.amazon.com/LeMay-Life-War...emay+biography Being a SAC Trained Killer, I had to find out about my 'roots'. Amazing stuff. |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1726425)
I just finished reading a book about Curtis LeMay.
Crazy amount of crap those guys went through, and the death rates...even in training! :eek: Amazon.com: LeMay: The Life and Wars of General Curtis LeMay (9781596987692): Warren Kozak: Books Being a SAC Trained Killer, I had to find out about my 'roots'. Amazing stuff. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/080613...&robot_redir=1 Guy became a screen writer after the war so he writes real well too. |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1726139)
No dick measuring please, I'll lose, just ask my wife!
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Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
(Post 1726171)
FWIW, there are worse training enviroments than UPT.
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