What do the majors look for...
 

Hi guys,

I am at a very fortunate but tough decision, I've been offered to fly Dash8's with a 2 year upgrade or E170's with a 6-7 year upgrade that's supposedly dwindling down to 4-5 year upgrades. I already have 800ish hours in jets and 1000+ PIC hours mostly in light single and twin pistons. However, I am trying to set my self up for whatever is best 3-5 years down the road when applying to a major. Would it be better to have the heavier jet time with a glass cockpit in the E170, probably around 3000 hours worth after 4 years or the 1000+ 121 PIC turboprop after 2 years?? Now both would most likely provide the base I want, however the Dash pays $7 an hour more first year. I am hung up on what the majors would prefer more, the glass cockpit jet time or 121 PIC time?? Thanks for your input!

I can't answer your question, but I will let you know that whatever they told you for upgrade times is most likely a load of crap!

Well, I know the Dash upgrade times are accurate, I have 2 friends flying for the company and both at 25 months are in upgrade classes.

I think what was meant was that upgrade time today has little or no bearing on upgrade time a year or two from now. Upgrades were less than 2 years when I got hired at my current airline. My number didn't come up for nearly 6 years. There are just so many variables that affect upgrade time, making it very much a moving target.

In 2007, when I was at XJT, they were telling new hires that they'd be captains in 18 months. 6 years later, they were still in the right seat. It's 25 months AT THE EXACT MOMENT IN TIME. Things change. I'm not trying to discourage you. I'm just interjecting a little reality. Pick a place you want to go, not based on the upgrade time, but a place you can afford to be stuck at for a few years, if you have to be.

Its interesting the questions you ask and, more so, the questions you haven't asked. Based on what you have provided as information regarding to different employers and the upgrade expectations you present, you are assuming this will be a transitional job to the majors. IMHO, this is a mistake. You should assume that either of these jobs could be your last employ in aviation.
This is not to dash your hopes and dreams, but look at these two opportunities and assume you will stay with them a lot longer than getting the minumum PIC you need to get on with Delta. It may answer the question for you. If not, ask on the regional forum and be more specific about who you have offers from.

Best of luck!

The first box to check at many majors is Turbine PIC (could be changing in the future.) I would seriously consider the quickest upgrade time all other things being equal. Even if all the majors eventually drop the turbine PIC minimum, having 1000 hours or more will make you more competitive than SIC jet in my opinion.

It seems it has to be spelled out fairly regularly for those seeking employment. Do not choose a regional contractor based upon what you've been told upgrade times are. Once again, you've been warned. :)

Pretend you got both jobs. Write a resume as if you took either job. Compare the resumes 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 years from now.

I think you'd like the Dash 8 PIC resume more.

At the end of the day, with either job, you will still be "just a regional pilot". I used to have the same train of though as you, however there is no perfect scenario. One thing is for certain though, things change. Do you have at least a bachelors degree? What type of degree is it? What is your GPA? Any sports or extracurricular activities in college? Do you volunteer anywhere?

I would take the quicker upgrade on the Dash. More TPIC time will help get you in quicker at a major. In 1999 AA had so many apps (over 13k like they do now). Because they had so many apps, they said everyone had to have at least 500 turbine pic hours. I only had 487 and was sitting right seat at a regional. So you never know what the majors will do since they all have so many apps in. I eventually got on with AA, but it cost me several years of seniority etc. I don't see a shortage of qualified applicants at majors for another decade. Those with more PIC time will look better on paper. Good luck!

Here is someone who gets it.

Yeah ok. I've got over 6000 TPIC and there's guys getting hired at legacies with 10% PIC what I have. There's seemingly no rhyme or reason as to why someone gets a call over someone else.

Pick a regional based on who has a base where you live/close to it. Pay at regionals sucks. Everyone is pretty much within a buck or two of each other. Go for QOL and you'll be much less miserable than if you chase an upgrade time that changes like the wind.

Could you share your background with us ? Education, types flown, etc ? Thanks

Absolutely, sorry my old Username "JLDWC" has me locked out.

I have a B.S in Aviation Management
I'm currently an assistant chief pilot for a 135 charter company
I am type rated in LRJET and LR60
A little over 2000 total time, 800 in jets, 40 PIC in the LRJET..just made captain
Flown KingAir 90's, King Air 200s, Lear 35 and Lear 60

Thanks for your help!

It sounds like you are well on your way. Most likely you are currently lacking PIC turbine and total time to be a competitive applicant at a major.

If you just made Lear captain, have you considered staying put and racking up turbine PIC and total time where your at? 121 experience would probably help diversify your resume but I would bet 2000 PIC jet time would get you farther than jumping ship and starting as an SIC again even though it is 121 time.

Identify your resume weaknesses and fix them. Or try reducing them. Some, like TPIC, are at the fate of seniority list progress. Others, like education, volunteering, union work, professional training, mentoring, working with the Flight Department, are not necessarily tied 1:1 to the seniority list.

Make yourself the best candidate you can.

The question has come up before - "I'm at a commuter as an FO. I can go to XYZ and become a larger jet FO or hope to upgrade at my current job in a year or two." The typical advice from guys, who aren't the decision makers but do talk with candidates and newhires, is typically 'take the upgrade'.

^^^ That becomes a tougher decision for the candidate who is 48 and not 28. The 28 yr old can wait. Or a 40 yr old with no college vs. the same 28 yr old. The guys less qualified vs. their peers have to consider "what if the majors don't call? What job will be a better long term option?" The 28 yr old has a long term outlook that the older guys don't have the luxury to have.

That's where the generic advice about taking the upgrade, even at lower pay, vs. taking a long term FO job that pay more might not be the best advice.

I love your avatar. Don't ever change.

4.3 GPA in high school/top 3% of class
3.85 for BS (completed in 3 yrs)
3.85 for MS (completed in 2 semesters)
After college became a CFI for almost 2 yrs, hired as a 121 FO with around 1400 TT (would have gone MIL route but couldn't get a flight slot with eyesight)
Upgraded in 2 yrs 3 mos to the EMB-145, got the 1000 TPIC in 13 mos. Started applying to legacies in '08 only to see the economy crash and age 65 take effect.

Took a lateral CA spot on the ERJ-170 for more pay and another type 3 yrs ago. Thought it might help get at job at US Air/JBlue by having time in type.

Now have over 6000 TPIC, 9500 TT. 8000 of that is 121. No check ride failures, disciplinary issues, etc. 3-4 parking tickets since '97 but that's about it. Applied the last 3 yrs to be a CKA but was told "maybe in a few years when I get more senior".

Volunteered quite a bit with missionary work, habitat for humanity in high school/college. Most of my 121 career was at 12/13 days off as a commuter so not much time to volunteer if I want to see my family/raise kids.

"Make yourself the best candidate you can."

I'll mention a couple of success stories that I'm aware of. Obviously there's hundreds, or thousands, that have similar resumes but havn't got called. Sometimes the addition to your resume might be the trigger that gets you the call. The fact is no one knows what triggers 'the call' but that shouldn't stop you from improving your resume as best you can.

And sometimes guys are trapped by the seniority system. That doesn't prevent you from standing out vs. your peers. Look around, almost everyone can identify friends or coworkers that you believe are going places and guys that aren't. Make yourself into the guy that is going places.

All the guys in the examples below had other duties, awards, education, etc. IE, no known holes except for the one's mentioned. Are they major holes? No. But they might have been in the biggest weaknesses in resumes that were fairly strong. They identified the weaknesses and fixed them. I don't know if the pilot hiring data bases can identify the drive to improve yourself but it can't hurt.

Military heavy jet guy. Transitioned to civilian cargo flying. Was pursuing a commuter job. I recommended continuing because it would add a couple of key areas that were missing from his resume - 121 ops and passenger ops. He got the commuter job, qualified 121, and got hired.

Retired military. Recommended getting 121 passenger job ASAP. He was going to wait. No, get moving. Would fill 'no 121' and 'no passenger ops' squares. Got qualified, got called. Awaiting 'congratulations' or TBNT.

Military guy with 121 FO experience. Different boat then the first two guys. "Get your military IP qual ASAP". He pushed for it and got it about 6 months earlier than expected. Got called, got hired.

All three identified potential weaknesses and corrected them. Sometimes the correction is possible, sometimes it isn't. I switched jobs three times, sometimes going 'backwards', to fix my resume when I was trying to get hired. The opportunity isn't always there as the industry has changed since then BUT that doesn't prevent an assessment of the current environment and identifying, and fixing, weaknesses if possible.

Working with another guy who's upgrade is still sometime in the future. Instead he's focusing on building up his non flying resume, both professionally and not professionally related. If his non flying work doesn't get him noticed I think he'll get called shortly after he upgrades.

Another guy was going to get another rating (not type rating) on his license. Trying to see if that triggered the software to reevaluate him. It doesn't hurt. Otherwise qualified.

And network. Pay attention. Job fairs. Yes, it's money. No known payoff. Except you'll never know if you don't show up. (I don't get a dime for pumping this)

Lots and lots of qualified guys. Don't stop making yourself better.

Good luck.

I'm gonna start going to every job fair I can this and next year. Hoping add'l face time will help.

So you've got a Lear PIC job? Make three future resumes based on the best projections you can come up with.

Lear PIC Dash FO, then CA in 2-3 yrs E- FO for 4-6yrs, CA in 5-7.

Compare the resumes at the 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 yr marks.

Example is Lear 300 hrs/yr. In three years you'd have 1000 hrs jet PIC, and another 1000 hrs on top of your current TT.

You might, or might not, be a Dash 8 CA by then. What does that resume look like?

And you'd still be an E-170 FO. With no TPIC time. Does that stand out vs. the first two jobs?


I had a corporate PIC job as a young, young guy. Took a huge pay cut to go back to lousy commuter FO pay. The CA's wanted to be my FO at the corporation. They didn't get that I quit as CA to be THEIR FO!?!? The fact was my resume had tons of qualifications but my TT was low so I fixed that weakness. Stepping back allowed my to qualify for my next job a year later. It wouldn't have happened if I'd stayed at the corporation. Would I have made it to the majors when I did if I hadn't taken the step backwards when I did? Hard to say but my resume would have been weaker due to low TT.

Needless to say I'm a big fan of fixing weaknesses. Many of the successful guys(senior/hired young) guys were aggressive in their careers. IMO they value that drive and appreciate it when they see it on an application.

The best advice I heard about getting hired was"have a passion for this business". Figure out how to show that on your resume and when you tell your story in an interview.

Sarcastic (obviously) but remember the looming Pilot Shortage. Recruiters should be showing up to applicants front doors to "sell" their airline

Free old fart advice. If you don't like it PM me and I'll give you a full refund.

No one knows the answer to the OP's question. But various decisions or choices might improve your odds. The big answer is we'll never know if they did work so we're shooting in the dark.


Again, before reading on, remember the opinion is free and comes with a money back guarantee if you disagree(PM required for PayPal numbers).
And these are generic observations and opinions on various issues and individual resumes, due to different circumstances, might result in different recommendations.



In contact today with another guy I'm mentoring. He was missing TPIC time. None. He got a TPIC job and a Legacy job came through about 3-4 months later. Was just getting the TPIC job square filled the trigger? We'll never know. But it was probably the biggest hole in his resume. He doesn't have much TPIC but someone, or the computer, grabbed him once he got the command job. Would it have happened if he hadn't chosen an upgrade job? We'll never know.

Didn't US recently, but no longer in effect, require a new job or type rating in the last 3.5 yrs? Was that an attempt to see if the guy's out there with his foot on the pedal vs. possibly being a lump? IDK. Again, sometimes it isn't possible because of the seniority system or the equipment fleet at your airline (ie like SW) but if you've got the option I'd seriously consider it. You're fighting a software search so who knows what it's triggers are. Maybe the old US requirement was, or is, a point getter? IDK. That's assuming it's a point style system. Again IDK.

Here's a common belief/observation, guys with tons of time in one job/seat, that havn't changed one or both, in a long time, have more problems then guys that aren't in that box. Old dog and new tricks comes to mind. Was that perhaps the driving force behind US's(?) former requirement? IDK.

Just spoke with a guy that has a strong resume, good guy, recruiting knows him by name, but the bell's not ringing. We talked months ago and he decided to pitch in more. No clue if it will help get hired but he's finding it tremendously rewarding. He's better for it.

He mentioned flying with a recent ex-military guy. The guy jumped on a low paying RJ job to learn the civilian/121/pax ops gig. My contact told him "you won't be here long." Gone in a matter of months. If I was a separating military guy I'd suck it up and chase the RJ/121 flying. Yes, the pay sucks. No, there's no guarantee. Consider two options - commuter fly for a year and then chase better paying low hour gig/contract job vs. option two - better paying job first and RJ later. When would you pull the trigger and decide that maybe the commuter job might be the square you need?? I don't know but I don't see many guys quitting the better paying job and going to the lower paying job. IMO take the low paying job, fill the civilian/121/pax ops squares, live the suck as long as possible, and switch when or if you have to(500 or 1000 hrs minimum?)

The fact is more TPIC guys are getting hired than non TPIC guys. Frustrating if you can't fill that square. But work on improve the professional non-flying and volunteering aspects of your resume. You will be better for it. It will show, even if only inside you and it allows you to walk with broader shoulders.

Guys around 30 yrs old were blown away by a 42 yr old's resume. Don't compare yourself with a guy with that much more experience/age. Compare yourself with your peers and get better. When you're 10-15 yrs farther down the road your resume will be much better than it is today and the younger guys will be looking at you going "wow."

Guys debate about staying in a nice job, or taking a big jet FO job, instead of a decent enough TPIC job. That's why the advice of many is "take the upgrade". It's interesting talking with new Captains. One guy said it perhaps best "it's only 4' away but it feels like it's 40' ". Another guy said "I upgraded on the same airplane and it's amazing how much different the job is. I watched, thought I got it, but had no clue." A friend "I've met more people(CP's, supervisors, police, fleet managers, performance folks, dispatchers, agents) in six months as a Captain then I did in 20 yrs as an FO." He was knee deep in stuff, making phone calls, and the FO walked up "call me when it's all done and let me know how it went down". He looked at him and thought "hey, that used to be MY job!". Final resolution took more than a week. FO probably went home and worked on his golf swing. :-)

The guys running the hiring show are Captains. They've done the upgrade and the hiring stats, or requirements, typically show they put a greater value on command experience. Insurance companies demand it. The regulatory agencies require it. Sports talk about the difference between being the head coach and an assistant. Companies value a guy's resume who signed the checks (CFO's) or made the major decisions (COO, CEO, etc) which is why guys step 'back' into jobs that get their signatures on the decisions, before moving forward again. Being the final decider and having that authority is not a hollow check mark.

Gender change and/or skin pigmentation treatments are possible solutions to boost your application's strength. I know we all hate to admit it, but its the day and age we live in.

Yes, if 95% of the pilots flying for major airlines were not white males, this would make sense.

And so that makes it ok to reverse discriminate? Shouldn't qualifications and networking be enough to get an interview regardless of race or gender?

The Caucasian race will soon become a minority in the US, does that mean that Caucasians will finally be able to reap the benefits that minorities enjoy in our profession?

I don't know, but your assertion that it would somehow help you to be a minority or female is easily offset taking a sampling of 121 major airline pilots. Most of the time, it's two old white guys up there.