ryane946

FYI, here are the ammendable dates for Major airline contracts:

American - May 2008
Continental - December 2008
United - May 2009
US Air - December 2009
Delta - January 2010

SCOPE, SCOPE, SCOPE. Perhaps one of the most important issue for any professional pilot (from a wet commercial certificate through a junior captain at a major airline). 50 seat max would be ideal (Way to go Continental). 70 seat max is a more realistic approach. Anything over 70 seats needs to be fought.

Delta I believe is limited to 76, and that allows them to fly CRJ-900's. There are not many CRJ-900's in the Delta Connection system. YET! Do Delta pilots have the potential to lower this number to 70, or add a clause related to maximum gross weight to exclude the CRJ-900, as well as the potential EMB-175 and EMB-190 from regional airlines.

US Air did a great job by bringing online EMB-190's at the major level. Now they should try to get their scope down to a 70 seat max. That is especially important because that will leave Mesa with 38 CRJ-900's and nothing to do with them!!! Send them to that crazy venture in China. HOPEFULLY!
US Air recently placed 30 EMB-175's with Republic, and those can seat from 78-86. Maybe allow those to be flown at the regional, but nothing new over 70 seats. Or better yet, those EMB-175's could be flown at the mainline US Air (using the EMB-190 payscale).

Northwest... well... um... God help them. They really f*cked up with their scope. I can't even think of a way to fix it, other than totally void that crappy agreement.

Frontier, Alaska, and AirTran (who are either in/almost in) contract negotiations, be sure to hold the 70 seat limit. It seems (to the best of my knowledge) that Frontier and Alaska are limited to 70 seats, but make sure it does not get any higher. I know there is no regional for AirTran, but it may be worth making sure that scope is between 50 and 70 seats!

Good luck to all. Scope is INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT. Whether you just got your commercial, a CFI, a regional FO, regional capt, mainline FO, or junior mainline captaion, Scope affects you. Allowing your airline to outsource your jobs to the cheaper regionals hurts your upgrade, hurts your industry, and ultimately hurts your pay. PLEASE, PLEASE, worry about scope.
Delta, US Air, and ESPECIALLY Northwest...

So Wonwee

Pardon my ignorance, but what does all that mean? The number of seats are in regards to what exactly? Thanks in advance for the explanation.

ryane946

Another question. Of the major pilot groups in negotiations/ soon to be in negotiations, how many of them who tooks paycuts are expecting the pay to be restored to pre 9/11 levels? Or what kind of increases are you guys looking to get. You all made LARGE sacrafices. Is this the contract that you want it back??

Alaska
American
Continental
United
US Air
Delta

I don't believe Frontier or AirTran took any cuts... Could be wrong.

freezingflyboy

The maximum number of seats in any airplanes that are operated by a regional partner or subsidiary of a mainline carrier. Below the number specified in scope can be operated by a regional partner. Above that number would have to be flown by pilots at the mainline carrier.

Example:
At Continental, any JET aircraft with more than 50 seats must be flown by Continental pilots. 50 seats and less can be operated by regional partners (ExpressJet and Chiquita). Continental's scope clause excludes turbo-props hence the old ATR-72s Express used to have.

saab2000

The number of seats in question is regarding contract 'regional' carriers and the size of airplanes they operate.

The cat is out of the bag and it will be hard to put back in, but it can be done. Air Wisconsin, my employer, used to operate the BAe-146, which was, in it's largest version, nearly the size of a 737. We were granted an exemption with the United MEC but only with the language that we could operate "up to 18 airframes of the type BAe-146" if I remember correctly. When they were gone there would be no more. The only reason we got this was because of Aspen flying and the special relationship Air Wisconsin and United used to enjoy.

It is possible that the majors MECs can in their next negotiations, scope airplanes larger than 50 or 70 seats to the ones already on property at the contract regional carriers and require the larger, mainline carrier to put any additional 70-seat flying on the mainline seniority list.

The pilots will have much greater leverage next time around I believe and I think scope clause language will be a big deal. I really hope that the limit will be 70 seats, since I don't think it can be brought back down to 50.

Anyway, that is a quick explanation of the seat issue. It is intended to help protect mainline jobs by having fewer of them farmed out (outsourced) to underpaid pilots at regional carriers. Pilots are regional carriers must support this effort as well as it will help us secure jobs in the future.

Gunter

I know you are new to this scope battle stuff. But you have a good grasp of current reality.

The war was fought. Pilots lost a lot of ground. Sometimes they gave it away without much fanfare when enticed with better pay and work rules. BK took those away but they a left with the scope losses.


Do you really think management is going to let the pilots renegotiate good scope back into existance? What do you propose the pilots use to get them back in place? What should they negotiate away to get good scope back? Do you think a threat of strike is possible or in order?


As far as pay raises, you have better info than the employees. If you see rising profits you see the chance for higher pay. If you see tons of growth at a small carrier the company will threaten the growth to keep pay lower. But that threat will be hollow if profits are high enough.

Lastly, expect negotiations to take YEARS when they open up. Pay no attention to contract opening talks that begin before the amenable dates. They will not change the timeline.

I don't see anyone signing contracts any sooner than 18-24 months after the amenable dates unless a catalyst is introduced. Right now I can't imagine what that catalyst might be.

BTW, American has already been asking their pilots for more givebacks. I wouldn't want to be on the bubble for callback there. Movement is nonexistant.

Nashmd11

Unless someone goes ALL the WAY and forces a Strike, of at least a week, the pay raises of 30 to 50% isn't going to happen. The ATA and the managers kicked everyone's arse, and they are not going to let up. They are going to use all their power to keep the wages low for the next 20 years. They had a golden opportunity, and took FULL advantage.

I see a 8 to 10% raise off set by productivity gains. So really a cost nuetral contract for years to come. Unless some one has the Balls to take to a strike.

Good Luck.

BoilerUP

The idea of scope is great...but given 1990 thru today, Scope isn't anything but a mouthwash. It will be impossible for any airline to re-secure flying that has already been outsourced.

The one thing mainline lists have going for them is the deteriorating economics of 50 seat jets, but the downside is that makes 70 and 90 seat "regional jets" much more attractive, especially if they are financed by a contract carrier and flown for the equivilant of a C scale.

jetblaster

American is represented at the national union level by a former check airman who has consistently given concession after concession in every move he has ever made as a union negotiator, vice president and now president. That, coupled with the fact that the only men on the negotiating committee with any experience as negotiators at all are former TWA Giveaway Artists Jacobs and Stowe and you see that AA pilots are once again leading the industry in the wrong direction.

This group was in charge during the 2003 concession; they knew that snapbacks in pay--at least pay--were vital, but did not pursue them. To expect them to win back any snapback now that even approaches what was earned in 2003 (which, by the way, had trailed DAL by 35% for three years and UAL by over 40% for a year) is simply not realistic when you consider that they have spent most of this year on a road show attempting to convince AA pilots to give away MORE concessions as part of the Pull Together, Win Together Performance Leadership Initiative. While any dumbass knew that this latest effort was a gratuitous, voluntary giveaway effort with nothing in return equity, AA pilots have a history of electing "company men" regardless of their penchant for trading union representation for management payoffs (of the 1997 negotiating committee that gave away the RJ to Eagle and took modest pay raises in the face of billion-dollar-profits at AMR at that time, 100% of that group ended up in management within a year, including Ralph Hunter, the current President. yes, fellow pilots, AA pilots re-elected a guy who blatantly sold them out in 1997 and took a check airman position for 8 years, then limped back over to the union and got elected president.)

So: do not count on AA pilots. Our representatives are now pretending to be hardliners to regain some credibility (Hunter is up for re-election, he is pumping a "unity" theme, as in, if you criticize the leadership, you are "divisive"); but, they will give it all away in the form of Preferential Bidding and other concessions that will outweigh whatever modest pay increases we might get. To be sure, we will not approach getting even our 23% pay cut back, never mind the CPI index-trailing spiral that has characterized the last 10 years of agreements.

Jetblaster

thomas39

READ the contracts you reference in your opening post! You don't know WTF you are talking about.

1. You praise USAIR for giving up the most and having the LEAST restrictive scope clause in the industry. They allow for 93 90 seat aircraft and 115 70-76 seat aircraft at their regionals. This is more than TWICE what is allowed in the NWA contract.

2. You claim NWA has the worst scope, but forget we slammed the door on any aiplane in our system over 76 seats. Every airplane over 76 seats must be flown by NWA seniority pilots at NWA mainline this includes the EMBs you referenced.

3. The NUMBER of RJs need to be considered, not just seat capacity alone. The NWA contract only allows for a NET increase of 55 76 seat airplanes TOTAL in our entire system and then may only be increased by tied growth at the mainline.