Middle East carrier subsidies
03-11-2015, 11:35 AM
#111
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Originally Posted by F15Cricket
I have numbered your points to correlate my responses.
1. Are you next going to say that Mexico has a bad government, so we shouldn't let their airlines fly in the US? Well, since it really has nothing to do with the discussion ...
2. It doesn't matter what I call them. If our president or the CEO of Generic US Airlines is a total jerk who is a bad leader and mistreats their people, what does that have to do with this discussion? Nothing, as I can see.
3. When the bankruptcies of the airlines allowed them to renegotiate their loans and union contracts and artificially lower their expenses, did that give them an unfair advantage against other US airlines that didn't do the same thing? And, you said the debt restructuring was pennies on the dollar ... What is $10k compared to $1m? Yup, it's 1%, so it is a penny on the dollar. I was not confusied but making a point. When the US BIg 3 declared their bankruptcies, did that allow them to restructure (from their unsuccessful business model) to something that is reaping extraordinary profits today?
4. Again, how does that relate to the ME3 having an unfair advantage? Do you work for an airline that gives you complete freedom of expression? Doubt it--try showing up to work not in uniform, or post an Internet article dogging your employer and see how that goes for you.
5. You are probably correct in your analysis, but neither of us know.
6. And US-elected officials who say, "What difference does it make?!" when their decisions got Americans killed in Libya are ok? Open your eyes, man...
1. Are you next going to say that Mexico has a bad government, so we shouldn't let their airlines fly in the US? Well, since it really has nothing to do with the discussion ...
2. It doesn't matter what I call them. If our president or the CEO of Generic US Airlines is a total jerk who is a bad leader and mistreats their people, what does that have to do with this discussion? Nothing, as I can see.
3. When the bankruptcies of the airlines allowed them to renegotiate their loans and union contracts and artificially lower their expenses, did that give them an unfair advantage against other US airlines that didn't do the same thing? And, you said the debt restructuring was pennies on the dollar ... What is $10k compared to $1m? Yup, it's 1%, so it is a penny on the dollar. I was not confusied but making a point. When the US BIg 3 declared their bankruptcies, did that allow them to restructure (from their unsuccessful business model) to something that is reaping extraordinary profits today?
4. Again, how does that relate to the ME3 having an unfair advantage? Do you work for an airline that gives you complete freedom of expression? Doubt it--try showing up to work not in uniform, or post an Internet article dogging your employer and see how that goes for you.
5. You are probably correct in your analysis, but neither of us know.
6. And US-elected officials who say, "What difference does it make?!" when their decisions got Americans killed in Libya are ok? Open your eyes, man...
2. If it doesn't matter what you call them, then it doesn't matter what I call them, either. They're thugs who are only interested in themselves and keeping the wealth and power of their country in their hands. And if you're a citizen in one of those ME countries who speaks out, maybe you disappear. Maybe your family disappears. But hey, these dictators want to diversify their economy at MY professional expense so they can have some extra streams of income to make those Bentley payments when the oil dries up. Let's help a brotha out, huh?
3. Again, the bankruptcy argument IMO is one of the few real arguments that the big ME 3 can make about unfair competition. IMO it's NOT a subsidy since the US government didn't hand Delta, for example, billions of dollars to stay solvent or to cover a bad fuel hedging policy. So again, I wouldn't have a beef with an insolvent ME airline going through a similar TRANSPARENT Chapter 11 process with an exit plan that allows the airline to go forward as an ongoing entity WITHOUT King so-and-so propping up his pet airline with interest free loans and multi-billion dollar airports with landing fees that can't even cover the cost of capital.
4. I can't believe you're comparing a company's uniform policy to brutal dictators not allowing their citizens basic human rights. When a ME thug doesn't allow his "subjects" the legal right to unionize for example, that's a competitive advantage. Just like you say US Airlines have an unfair advantage with US bankruptcy law, the big ME 3 have an unfair advantage when their self-appointed Kings oppress those who work in their country by not giving them a right to unionize. And since labor costs are an airline's largest cost or second largest cost in a business where margins are normally extremely narrow, that is a huge advantage to ME carriers.
5. I just did a keyword search on "CRAF" in Delta's and United's last annual report. The only reference to the CRAF program was a small paragraph in Delta's filing saying that they participate in the program and that it has only been activated twice since its inception. I doubt they're getting paid anything, nor was a payment of any sort disclosed in their annual report.
6. Open YOUR eyes. These Middle East dictators are VERY VERY bad people. If you don't understand the difference between a brutal ME dictator and an elected US official who makes decisions or comments that you disagree with, then seriously man, there really isn't anything to discuss.
Just curious....I'm a US airline pilot and US citizen- there's my bias. Just wondering why you are so vigorously defending these despots? Are a US citizen? Do you work for a ME carrier?
03-11-2015, 11:45 AM
#112
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The side of Dubai that they DON'T want tourists to see | Daily Mail Online
Facebook posts about job land US contractor in Emirates jail
Cricket, you may proceed with your defense of the above.
Facebook posts about job land US contractor in Emirates jail
Cricket, you may proceed with your defense of the above.
03-11-2015, 11:50 AM
#113
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Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 474
Originally Posted by Buford
Full disclosure - wife here. Last year I listened to a podcast about Emirates and their brand building. The head of their sponsorship department stated explicitly that, "Sponsorship is about relationship building through politics". An example he gave is when Emirates sponsors a big sporting event (eg. Emirates Airline US Tennis Open) the local manager ie. JFK, "...invites key civil aviation people to host, in order to build relationships for future Emirates gates in certain markets". I wrote this down as I'm currently studying marketing. Emirates schmoozes key people and influential politicians - this is what needs to stop. These people are funded by taxpayers yet they often aren't working in their best interests. Be interesting to see a guest list of Emirates invitees to such events!
I also found it a little too coincidental that those cheap fares between the U.S. and Dubai suddenly appeared.
I also found it a little too coincidental that those cheap fares between the U.S. and Dubai suddenly appeared.
03-11-2015, 12:04 PM
#114
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Posts: 1,566
Cricket is an Alaskan pilot and takes glee in any/everything that could/would harm Delta. He's afraid of the competition in Seattle and sees a joint venture with any/all the ME3 as salvation regardless of the fact that a foreign govt is bribing our elected officials and meddling in our countries internal politics. He knows they won't ever fly sea-Geg or even Juno so his job will be secure, but does know that if allowed that they would have a 380 to every international destination we fly, thus ridding Seattle of Delta.
Originally Posted by globalexpress
1. No, I didn't say that. The Big US 3 aren't saying that Emirates can't dump a bunch of capacity in the US because we don't like their dictators. They're saying they can't dump a bunch of capacity in the US because they are government subsidized entities, and the subsidies would make it impossible for non-state supported airlines in the US to effectively compete against them.
2. If it doesn't matter what you call them, then it doesn't matter what I call them, either. They're thugs who are only interested in themselves and keeping the wealth and power of their country in their hands. And if you're a citizen in one of those ME countries who speaks out, maybe you disappear. Maybe your family disappears. But hey, these dictators want to diversify their economy at MY professional expense so they can have some extra streams of income to make those Bentley payments when the oil dries up. Let's help a brotha out, huh?
3. Again, the bankruptcy argument IMO is one of the few real arguments that the big ME 3 can make about unfair competition. IMO it's NOT a subsidy since the US government didn't hand Delta, for example, billions of dollars to stay solvent or to cover a bad fuel hedging policy. So again, I wouldn't have a beef with an insolvent ME airline going through a similar TRANSPARENT Chapter 11 process with an exit plan that allows the airline to go forward as an ongoing entity WITHOUT King so-and-so propping up his pet airline with interest free loans and multi-billion dollar airports with landing fees that can't even cover the cost of capital.
4. I can't believe you're comparing a company's uniform policy to brutal dictators not allowing their citizens basic human rights. When a ME thug doesn't allow his "subjects" the legal right to unionize for example, that's a competitive advantage. Just like you say US Airlines have an unfair advantage with US bankruptcy law, the big ME 3 have an unfair advantage when their self-appointed Kings oppress those who work in their country by not giving them a right to unionize. And since labor costs are an airline's largest cost or second largest cost in a business where margins are normally extremely narrow, that is a huge advantage to ME carriers.
5. I just did a keyword search on "CRAF" in Delta's and United's last annual report. The only reference to the CRAF program was a small paragraph in Delta's filing saying that they participate in the program and that it has only been activated twice since its inception. I doubt they're getting paid anything, nor was a payment of any sort disclosed in their annual report.
6. Open YOUR eyes. These Middle East dictators are VERY VERY bad people. If you don't understand the difference between a brutal ME dictator and an elected US official who makes decisions or comments that you disagree with, then seriously man, there really isn't anything to discuss.
Just curious....I'm a US airline pilot and US citizen- there's my bias. Just wondering why you are so vigorously defending these despots? Are a US citizen? Do you work for a ME carrier?
2. If it doesn't matter what you call them, then it doesn't matter what I call them, either. They're thugs who are only interested in themselves and keeping the wealth and power of their country in their hands. And if you're a citizen in one of those ME countries who speaks out, maybe you disappear. Maybe your family disappears. But hey, these dictators want to diversify their economy at MY professional expense so they can have some extra streams of income to make those Bentley payments when the oil dries up. Let's help a brotha out, huh?
3. Again, the bankruptcy argument IMO is one of the few real arguments that the big ME 3 can make about unfair competition. IMO it's NOT a subsidy since the US government didn't hand Delta, for example, billions of dollars to stay solvent or to cover a bad fuel hedging policy. So again, I wouldn't have a beef with an insolvent ME airline going through a similar TRANSPARENT Chapter 11 process with an exit plan that allows the airline to go forward as an ongoing entity WITHOUT King so-and-so propping up his pet airline with interest free loans and multi-billion dollar airports with landing fees that can't even cover the cost of capital.
4. I can't believe you're comparing a company's uniform policy to brutal dictators not allowing their citizens basic human rights. When a ME thug doesn't allow his "subjects" the legal right to unionize for example, that's a competitive advantage. Just like you say US Airlines have an unfair advantage with US bankruptcy law, the big ME 3 have an unfair advantage when their self-appointed Kings oppress those who work in their country by not giving them a right to unionize. And since labor costs are an airline's largest cost or second largest cost in a business where margins are normally extremely narrow, that is a huge advantage to ME carriers.
5. I just did a keyword search on "CRAF" in Delta's and United's last annual report. The only reference to the CRAF program was a small paragraph in Delta's filing saying that they participate in the program and that it has only been activated twice since its inception. I doubt they're getting paid anything, nor was a payment of any sort disclosed in their annual report.
6. Open YOUR eyes. These Middle East dictators are VERY VERY bad people. If you don't understand the difference between a brutal ME dictator and an elected US official who makes decisions or comments that you disagree with, then seriously man, there really isn't anything to discuss.
Just curious....I'm a US airline pilot and US citizen- there's my bias. Just wondering why you are so vigorously defending these despots? Are a US citizen? Do you work for a ME carrier?
03-11-2015, 12:19 PM
#115
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Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 474
Originally Posted by NERD
Cricket is an Alaskan pilot and takes glee in any/everything that could/would harm Delta. He's afraid of the competition in Seattle and sees a joint venture with any/all the ME3 as salvation regardless of the fact that a foreign govt is bribing our elected officials and meddling in our countries internal politics. He knows they won't ever fly sea-Geg or even Juno so his job will be secure, but does know that if allowed that they would have a 380 to every international destination we fly, thus ridding Seattle of Delta.
03-11-2015, 12:36 PM
#116
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Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: tri current
Posts: 1,485
Originally Posted by globalexpress
4. I can't believe you're comparing a company's uniform policy to brutal dictators not allowing their citizens basic human rights. When a ME thug doesn't allow his "subjects" the legal right to unionize for example, that's a competitive advantage. Just like you say US Airlines have an unfair advantage with US bankruptcy law, the big ME 3 have an unfair advantage when their self-appointed Kings oppress those who work in their country by not giving them a right to unionize. And since labor costs are an airline's largest cost or second largest cost in a business where margins are normally extremely narrow, that is a huge advantage to ME carriers.
Again showing complete and total ignorance born from prejudice and racism.
Honestly posts like that show one of the reasons that the ME3 are the target of this campaign. They are an easy target exactly because of the general feeling against Islam and the Middle East these days. Not that I am defending Islam, just that the tactic is classic in so many ways. This while South American airlines, who pay on average 1/3 to 1/2 of what the ME3 pay, go unnoticed as they create huge alliances and airlines groups of their own.
Just for the record. Workers in the Middle East are generally there because they make far more money than they can in their home countries; because the QOL is much better than their home countries; and because it is a much safer environment to raise children.
UAE citizens, the ones you say don't have basic human rights, are given unbelievable amounts of time off and have incredible opportunities for education paid for by their employer. That doesn't really meet the definition of "oppressed by a brutal dictator".
Typhoonpilot
03-11-2015, 01:18 PM
#117
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No brutal dictators here, right tp?
03-11-2015, 01:23 PM
#118
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Posts: 474
Originally Posted by Typhoonpilot
Again showing complete and total ignorance born from prejudice and racism.
Honestly posts like that show one of the reasons that the ME3 are the target of this campaign. They are an easy target exactly because of the general feeling against Islam and the Middle East these days. Not that I am defending Islam, just that the tactic is classic in so many ways. This while South American airlines, who pay on average 1/3 to 1/2 of what the ME3 pay, go unnoticed as they create huge alliances and airlines groups of their own.
Just for the record. Workers in the Middle East are generally there because they make far more money than they can in their home countries; because the QOL is much better than their home countries; and because it is a much safer environment to raise children.
UAE citizens, the ones you say don't have basic human rights, are given unbelievable amounts of time off and have incredible opportunities for education paid for by their employer. That doesn't really meet the definition of "oppressed by a brutal dictator".
Typhoonpilot
Honestly posts like that show one of the reasons that the ME3 are the target of this campaign. They are an easy target exactly because of the general feeling against Islam and the Middle East these days. Not that I am defending Islam, just that the tactic is classic in so many ways. This while South American airlines, who pay on average 1/3 to 1/2 of what the ME3 pay, go unnoticed as they create huge alliances and airlines groups of their own.
Just for the record. Workers in the Middle East are generally there because they make far more money than they can in their home countries; because the QOL is much better than their home countries; and because it is a much safer environment to raise children.
UAE citizens, the ones you say don't have basic human rights, are given unbelievable amounts of time off and have incredible opportunities for education paid for by their employer. That doesn't really meet the definition of "oppressed by a brutal dictator".
Typhoonpilot
You don't have to defend Islam. The vast majority of Islamists are good people.
I'll ask you again. Would it be OK to have Obama, for example, declare himself King of the United States, and take away my rights as a US citizen, if he treated us US citizens "really nicely?" Would you think King Obama was a "good guy" if I spoke out against his kingship (is that a word?) and my family and I disappeared in the middle of the night and ended up in jail? What if he shut down this forum because there were too many complaints about his leadership? Do you consider people who aren't allowed to choose their leaders as oppressed? How about people who aren't allowed freedom of speech? The right to unionize? The right to create political parties? The right to vote? The right to worship any God they please? If that's not oppression, I'm not sure what is?
Typhoon, why did the UAE send "police officers" to Bahrain in 2011? What was it that the Emirates were so afraid of if they're "nice" to their citizens?
Did you know a woman has to ask the permission of a male guardian before she is allowed to remarry in the UAE? Women are severely punished for such crimes as adultery. Apparently under Sharia law, you can be stoned for such an offense!
These ME leaders brutually oppress their people, Typhoon. I realize you might be biased considering your employment history, and I realize the UAE might be more liberal than some of the other culprits, but just a little Google-ing would go a long way for you. The leadership are still tyrants. There are multiple, unrelated, apolitical sources that describe the "leadership styles" of the countries in question. They also provide examples of what happen to citizens who don't "tow the party line." Thank God I'm a US citizen and I wasn't born in the UAE. I'd already be dead.
But back to the thread topic.....why should US airline pilots have their careers put at risk by allowing these opaque, government subsidized airlines access to US and European markets just so a few despots can diversify their economy so they can continue to afford their lavish lifestyles when the oil dries up?
03-11-2015, 01:26 PM
#119
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Originally Posted by Typhoonpilot
UAE citizens, the ones you say don't have basic human rights, are given unbelievable amounts of time off and have incredible opportunities for education paid for by their employer
Typhoonpilot
03-11-2015, 01:41 PM
#120
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Posts: 358
Originally Posted by Timbo
Um...let me guess...maybe it's because the big 3 Majors (and even Alaska) all PAY TAXES to support the US Government, which you may recall, is supposed to be "By the People, of the People and FOR THE PEOPLE" of the USA, not the people of any Foreign Nations! 
The US Government is supposed to PROTECT and suppoert the Citizens of the USA, not to support a foreign entity that shows up in Washington DC with a boat load of cash for 'Re-election Campaign Contributions' and building hospitals, at the expense of US Jobs.
The US Government is supposed to PROTECT and suppoert the Citizens of the USA, not to support a foreign entity that shows up in Washington DC with a boat load of cash for 'Re-election Campaign Contributions' and building hospitals, at the expense of US Jobs.
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