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Old 04-28-2015, 08:22 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by RemoveB4flght View Post
Takes a man to admit a mistake, especially when cloaked in the anonymity of the internet.

When it comes to conscious decisions on hiring:

If ever those pilots or management appointed to a hiring committee at a US airline have contention with or hold a grudge that I or other pilots who came to the Middle East during a period of time when it was those very companies that chose to put on the street experienced human capital, and then feel that those unemployed pilots through some obscure sense of patriotism should have chosen a different career path so as not to in any small degree affect their bottom line… well I suppose they'll just have to make their decision. You'll excuse me if I'm less than apologetic to such absurdity.

When it comes to ALPA:

If they want to include as part of their lobbying efforts against the ME3 to influence airlines to unilaterally exclude from hiring any pilots who previously or are currently working for one.. Well then you have no reason to "black list"me, as I have no desire to be part (again) of such an organization which would use the careers of former members as a bargaining chip or scare tactic when their expat employment played no role in subsidies, open skies, or any other detriment (perceived or otherwise) to their membership.

I would really love a complete explanation as to how fellow pilots are the enemy and why they deserve to be punished, excluded, banned, or black listed, but I'll tell you one thing…

If management can convince unions not to hire pilots who worked a competing airline, that's a very slippery slope.
Thanks for the rational reply. Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves with speculation. I really have no idea as to what might unfold between the governments and airlines involved. I have no idea what hiring departments might or might not do in the future, and I'm not implying any sort of threat to a person who went to work overseas, as long as they weren't killing kittens in the process. No one is targeting you, and no one expects any pilot to refuse to fly for the ME3 out of a sense of patriotism, so there doesn't need to be an explanation as to where you "went wrong", because you didn't. The guys that are saying we should ban ME3 pilots are making knee-jerk statements.

There are however a couple of interesting questions in this thread, that are strictly rational:
1) Should the US legacies try to hire pilots away from the ME3?
2) Should the US legacies have policies to discourage additional going to the competition?

It's pretty rational for airlines to think about access to a limited supply of pilots, so I think both kinds of issues are on everyone's radar, the US carriers as well as the ME3. Hiring policies are not accidental, and from what I see, we hire ME3 pilots. I've never heard ALPA complaining about it, either.

I can't imagine anyone trying to "punish" any current ME3 pilots, because it would be self-defeating and stupid. But if you could encourage people to leave westbound, and simultaneously discourage others from going eastbound, maybe you would? I do mean "maybe", because I don't know what hiring departments think about, in this regard. If I was in charge of hiring, I'd consider facilitating the flow of pilots away from my competition, and wonder how to restrict the flow to the competition.

Does that make sense?
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Old 04-28-2015, 01:27 PM   #182
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No one is targeting you, and no one expects any pilot to refuse to fly for the ME3 out of a sense of patriotism, so there doesn't need to be an explanation as to where you "went wrong", because you didn't. The guys that are saying we should ban ME3 pilots are making knee-jerk statements.
Maybe not, however it seems to be a growing consensus. Pilots that I know who have returned to the US tell me of flight deck chatter that tells of a very biased view of their time here.

To be honest with each passing day I see my odds of returning grow less and less. While this may not have been the way I planned my career, it hasn't been the worst thing that ever happened to it. I've enjoyed my time here and while it hasn't all been easy, it has definitely opened my eyes to the rest of the world.

One of the biggest things that has kept me from actively seeking employment state-side is the prospect of being on the bottom of a seniority list again. Not because I am afraid of paying dues (again) but rather that I spent a lot of time early in my career broke, homeless, and several times unemployed. None of those are things at my age I want to submit myself to again.

Can I say I support every move/decision that senior management at my airline has chosen? No, but neither can any of you. I will tell you though that I am immensely proud of the pilot group I work with, what we have been able to build here, and the professionals I have had the privilege of working with and learning from.


Quote:
There are however a couple of interesting questions in this thread, that are strictly rational:
1) Should the US legacies try to hire pilots away from the ME3?
Short answer, absolutely.

Do I think I (representing a typical ME3 pilot) deserve a legacy slot more than my regional/corporate/military brethren? No.

Do I think that flying narrow and wide body aircraft with a vastly diverse mix of pilots and flight attendants to some very challenging parts of the world (developing countries, poor support, outside union protections) that few others have the opportunity to see gives me unique experience? Bet your arse it does.


Quote:
2) Should the US legacies have policies to discourage additional going to the competition?
Yes, in the form of not laying off pilots, not raiding pensions, not seeking contract concessions and not curtailing efforts to improve quality of life. That's how you keep the best and the brightest from going abroad.

If hiring based off not working for the competition was a factor, then any pilot working for a regional that stopped flying for United and instead took a contract for Delta routes should likewise be thrown out of the pool.. aren't they supporting a more direct competitor on more tangible domestic routes? What about those who work for an LCC and want to go to a Legacy.. weren't they hurting the bottom line?

As I said before that's a very slippery slope.
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Old 04-28-2015, 02:26 PM   #183
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Maybe not, however it seems to be a growing consensus. Pilots that I know who have returned to the US tell me of flight deck chatter that tells of a very biased view of their time here.
You're sounding a bit paranoid. I doubt that any airline's targeting ME3 pilot to either hire them or blackball them. The open talk here about doing either is just typical pilot rants. I don't advocate targeting ME3 pilots for blackballing nor do I advocate giving them preferential hiring.

A lot of stuff written on these boards is simply blowing off steam, allowing people to speak their minds under the cover of anonymity. I post my opinion here - sometimes I'm right, other times I'm way out in left field.

As far as this particular topic, there are arguments for both sides. My personal opinion prior to the Emirates MXP-JFK route authority was that the ME3 threat was overblown. However, with the granting of 5th Freedom Rights on that route in spite of plenty of nonstop service on that route (American, Delta, Alitalia. Even United EWR-MXP), my level of concern over the ME3 has increased. Time will tell if granting Fifth Freedom Route Authority to/from the US will continue or if this was a one-off. If 5th freedom routes becomes a trend, I'll get more concerned.

However, the ME3 aren't the only ones with Fifth Freedom Routes in/out of the US on adequately served routes.

As far as other routes in/out of the US:
Los Angeles London LHR Air New Zealand
Los Angeles Paris Air Tahiti Nui
Los Angeles Rarotonga Air New Zealand
Los Angeles Sao Paulo Korean Airlines
Los Angeles Seoul Thai Airways
Los Angeles Tokyo NRT Malaysia Airlines
Los Angeles Tokyo NRT Singapore Airlines
New York EWR Brussels Jet Airways
New York JFK Frankfurt Singapore Airlines
New York JFK London LHR Kuwait Airways
New York JFK Milan MXP Emirates
New York JFK Osaka China Airlines
New York JFK Vancouver Cathay Pacific
San Francisco Hong Kong Singapore Airlines
San Francisco Seoul Singapore Airlines
Washington DC Dakar South African Airways


Out of all of those routes, only the DC to Dakar route could be considered underserved.
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Old 04-28-2015, 03:03 PM   #184
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RB4F,

I'm not going to post your entire post, because I don't need to. Let's just say it's a good place to stop this part of the discussion. A lot of the drama still needs to unfold, and our companies may be engaged in normal, healthy competition at the end of it all. It's not like current pilots were consulted on the equity structure of the respective companies, or were conspiring to inject capital on the down-low.

Good luck to you, and I'll see you at the last merger.
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Old 04-28-2015, 04:01 PM   #185
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You're sounding a bit paranoid. I doubt that any airline's targeting ME3 pilot to either hire them or blackball them. The open talk here about doing either is just typical pilot rants. I don't advocate targeting ME3 pilots for blackballing nor do I advocate giving them preferential hiring.

A lot of stuff written on these boards is simply blowing off steam, allowing people to speak their minds under the cover of anonymity. I post my opinion here - sometimes I'm right, other times I'm way out in left field.

As far as this particular topic, there are arguments for both sides. My personal opinion prior to the Emirates MXP-JFK route authority was that the ME3 threat was overblown. However, with the granting of 5th Freedom Rights on that route in spite of plenty of nonstop service on that route (American, Delta, Alitalia. Even United EWR-MXP), my level of concern over the ME3 has increased. Time will tell if granting Fifth Freedom Route Authority to/from the US will continue or if this was a one-off. If 5th freedom routes becomes a trend, I'll get more concerned.

However, the ME3 aren't the only ones with Fifth Freedom Routes in/out of the US on adequately served routes.

As far as other routes in/out of the US:
Los Angeles London LHR Air New Zealand
Los Angeles Paris Air Tahiti Nui
Los Angeles Rarotonga Air New Zealand
Los Angeles Sao Paulo Korean Airlines
Los Angeles Seoul Thai Airways
Los Angeles Tokyo NRT Malaysia Airlines
Los Angeles Tokyo NRT Singapore Airlines
New York EWR Brussels Jet Airways
New York JFK Frankfurt Singapore Airlines
New York JFK London LHR Kuwait Airways
New York JFK Milan MXP Emirates
New York JFK Osaka China Airlines
New York JFK Vancouver Cathay Pacific
San Francisco Hong Kong Singapore Airlines
San Francisco Seoul Singapore Airlines
Washington DC Dakar South African Airways


Out of all of those routes, only the DC to Dakar route could be considered underserved.
Agree on the rant aspect.

What's your source on the 5th freedom rights on foreign carriers?
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Old 04-28-2015, 04:18 PM   #186
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What's your source on the 5th freedom rights on foreign carriers?
Google search. I couldn't find the page that I originally used; here's one from Jan 2015:
Fifth Freedom Routes - The Forward Cabin

Slightly dfferent format than I had; the one I had broke it down by city pairs.
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Old 04-28-2015, 04:25 PM   #187
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I think Ai Tahiti Nui is a French airline. I think you're correct on the others.
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Old 04-28-2015, 04:31 PM   #188
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I may be wrong but my understanding is that most if not all of the negotiated Open Skies agreements allows unlimited (or at least a lot of) 5th Freedom flying. The caveat is that the agreements between the airline flying them and the 3rd country must also allow them. I do stand to be corrected but that is my understanding.
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Old 04-28-2015, 05:02 PM   #189
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I think Ai Tahiti Nui is a French airline. I think you're correct on the others.
It was a copy/paste job of US airports with fifth freedom routes.
I see where you're coming from - Tahiti being part of French Polynesia.
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Old 04-28-2015, 06:20 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Sink r8 View Post

Speaking of lumping people together...

An example of doing it incorrectly is the Comair guys petitioning their management not to hire Delta furloughees while they were hiring.

.
Again, an incorrect lumping. I was there, and relatively new. Nobody asked me for my approval, or my opinion. Nobody I knew (a lot) was asked or told anything. I recall almost breaking an ignorant DL FO when he decided to touch me and accuse me of being part of the problem while we were collecting our gate check bags.

Don't "lump" 1500 pilots because of the actions of a few.


Don't know if I will ever come back stateside, but I DO like the idea of not paying ALPA ever again! Those few were the "special" union members and did nothing to benefit me. Complete waste of money for 8 years.

Good reading on this thread. The schooling and trolling of one particular poster was priceless
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