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The Emirates Advantage… Not just subsidies

Old 05-15-2015, 02:27 PM
  #211  
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Originally Posted by RemoveB4flght View Post
Etihad put up on their company website the findings of an outside company Risk Advisory Group, which they hired to counter investigate alleged government subsidies to the Big three US carriers, finding they collectively received $71.5 billion in benefits:

http://www.etihad.com/Documents/keep...y-report-1.pdf
Good luck trying to convince pilots on this board that actually have gone through the CH11 process with our families, that what happened was a government subsidy. As an employee, and a shareholder, I find the "argument" adds insult to the injury of Etihad's cheating.
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Old 05-15-2015, 02:54 PM
  #212  
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Originally Posted by Sink r8 View Post
Good luck trying to convince pilots on this board that actually have gone through the CH11 process with our families, that what happened was a government subsidy. As an employee, and a shareholder, I find the "argument" adds insult to the injury of Etihad's cheating.
No offense but your pensions being lost (or what pilots went through in bankruptcy) is a drop in the bucket compared to the "subsidies" of repeated bankruptcy, filling management's coffers and creation of D-class wages, for decades, now.

Its a small narrow minded world out there.....
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Old 05-15-2015, 04:15 PM
  #213  
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Originally Posted by Drofdeb View Post
No offense but your pensions being lost (or what pilots went through in bankruptcy) is a drop in the bucket compared to the "subsidies" of repeated bankruptcy, filling management's coffers and creation of D-class wages, for decades, now.

Its a small narrow minded world out there.....
You sure have a funny way of not offending. You know what my family and I went through?

As a shareholder in another airline's bankruptcy, I took an additional bath. The owners of airlines lose everything in CH 11. If the state made shareholders whole, maybe Etihad would have a case. For now, they have nothing to answer for getting caught cheating.
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Old 05-15-2015, 05:10 PM
  #214  
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Originally Posted by Sink r8 View Post
You sure have a funny way of not offending. You know what my family and I went through?

As a shareholder in another airline's bankruptcy, I took an additional bath. The owners of airlines lose everything in CH 11. If the state made shareholders whole, maybe Etihad would have a case. For now, they have nothing to answer for getting caught cheating.
My point was that, its not just you, who lost something. And not everyone lost. Its management types making gold and diamonds and 16,000 sq feet homes, while everyone loses. Someone, somewhere did get subsidized.
Thats our version of capitalism

But, blaming the ME3 carriers is the flavor of the month, so carry on with your blind hatred and shoot the messengers, while you are at it too. Your anger is obviously well directed, since they were the ones that took away what belonged to you.
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Old 05-15-2015, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Drofdeb View Post
My point was that, its not just you, who lost something. And not everyone lost. Its management types making gold and diamonds and 16,000 sq feet homes, while everyone loses. Someone, somewhere did get subsidized.
Thats our version of capitalism

But, blaming the ME3 carriers is the flavor of the month, so carry on with your blind hatred and shoot the messengers, while you are at it too. Your anger is obviously well directed, since they were the ones that took away what belonged to you.
I think the conversation would be better served if your posts contained an element of logic, and was lighter on the sarcasm.

I'm well aware that our executives protected themselves, but it does not constitute a subsidy. Right now, my focus (anger is your word) is on the three airlines that are stealing from mine, and distorting competition. I have no issue with airlines that do not steal, and as far as executives on my side that steal, that could be the topic of another discussion.

I just isn't the topic of this thread, no matter how much you try to obfuscate.
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Old 05-15-2015, 06:26 PM
  #216  
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Originally Posted by Sink r8 View Post
You sure have a funny way of not offending. You know what my family and I went through?

As a shareholder in another airline's bankruptcy, I took an additional bath. The owners of airlines lose everything in CH 11. If the state made shareholders whole, maybe Etihad would have a case. For now, they have nothing to answer for getting caught cheating.

Don't pay any attention to Drofdeb, he/she is a ****ed off RJ pilot that blames ALPA and the legacy pilots for his/her $h11ty paycheck.
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Old 05-15-2015, 07:57 PM
  #217  
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Originally Posted by Big E 757 View Post
Don't pay any attention to Drofdeb, he/she is a ****ed off RJ pilot that blames ALPA and the legacy pilots for his/her $h11ty paycheck.
Thanks. That would explain the bizarre posts.
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Old 05-15-2015, 10:15 PM
  #218  
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Originally Posted by Sink r8 View Post
Good luck trying to convince pilots on this board that actually have gone through the CH11 process with our families, that what happened was a government subsidy. As an employee, and a shareholder, I find the "argument" adds insult to the injury of Etihad's cheating.
You're right… part of Chapter 11 allowed the airline to use its employees as a subsidy, by allowing it to reject current collective bargaining agreements and forcing pay/benefit cuts. It's also allowed them to cash in on the insurance and leave pensions underfunded by billions, again at your expense.

All this happened before Etihad was even formed.

I'm truly sorry for those who lost big on pay and retirement plans, but this is a cat fight between several large companies. I have no emotional stake in these arguments, my loyalties are to whoever is signing my paychecks.

I get that you see ME3 encroachment on US markets as potential threat to your welfare as an employee, however empirical evidence would show your largest threat being those in your corporate offices shielded by golden parachutes.
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Old 05-15-2015, 10:46 PM
  #219  
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Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code is NOT a government subsidy. What IT IS is a mechanism that is not available in the rest of the world for a company to reorganize on backs of its shareholders, creditors and employees. The practical application of that is that it has allowed U.S. companies to reduce operating costs. In much of the rest of the world, similar reorganization is not available and they must either trudge on or liquidate. I believe that the ability to have something short of liquidation is enlightened BUT IT DOES uneven the competitive playing field from the perspective of companies that have to compete with that.

Not all of the White Paper or the accompanying 1000 page report dealt with subsidies. They also used examples of relationships, mechanisms and infrastructure that caused an "uneven" playing field in their opinion. I think the point is that it works both ways and the US3 are not the only aggrieved parties.

Where direct subsidies can be proved, by all means do something as an agreement was signed that precluded them but given the anti-trust immunity that the major U.S. carriers have for their alliances and the consolidation that has been allowed at the expense of consumers, I can't help but see some similarities with the behavior of the large U.S. companies in the late 19th and early 20th century. The US3 have gotten almost everything they have asked for and now they want more.
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Old 05-16-2015, 07:34 AM
  #220  
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Originally Posted by RemoveB4flght View Post
You're right… part of Chapter 11 allowed the airline to use its employees as a subsidy, by allowing it to reject current collective bargaining agreements and forcing pay/benefit cuts. It's also allowed them to cash in on the insurance and leave pensions underfunded by billions, again at your expense.

All this happened before Etihad was even formed.

I'm truly sorry for those who lost big on pay and retirement plans, but this is a cat fight between several large companies. I have no emotional stake in these arguments, my loyalties are to whoever is signing my paychecks.

I get that you see ME3 encroachment on US markets as potential threat to your welfare as an employee, however empirical evidence would show your largest threat being those in your corporate offices shielded by golden parachutes.
Good post. Of course, even if were to disagree as to what is the #1, vs. #2 threat, the reality is that we must deal with both.
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