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The Emirates Advantage… Not just subsidies

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The Emirates Advantage… Not just subsidies

Old 05-16-2015, 07:38 AM
  #221  
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Originally Posted by RemoveB4flght View Post
You're right… part of Chapter 11 allowed the airline to use its employees as a subsidy, by allowing it to reject current collective bargaining agreements and forcing pay/benefit cuts. It's also allowed them to cash in on the insurance and leave pensions underfunded by billions, again at your expense.

All this happened before Etihad was even formed.

I'm truly sorry for those who lost big on pay and retirement plans, but this is a cat fight between several large companies. I have no emotional stake in these arguments, my loyalties are to whoever is signing my paychecks.

I get that you see ME3 encroachment on US markets as potential threat to your welfare as an employee, however empirical evidence would show your largest threat being those in your corporate offices shielded by golden parachutes.
None of this is relevant to the issue with the mid east airlines.
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Old 05-16-2015, 07:47 AM
  #222  
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Originally Posted by Gillegan View Post
Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code is NOT a government subsidy. What IT IS is a mechanism that is not available in the rest of the world for a company to reorganize on backs of its shareholders, creditors and employees. The practical application of that is that it has allowed U.S. companies to reduce operating costs. In much of the rest of the world, similar reorganization is not available and they must either trudge on or liquidate. I believe that the ability to have something short of liquidation is enlightened BUT IT DOES uneven the competitive playing field from the perspective of companies that have to compete with that.

Not all of the White Paper or the accompanying 1000 page report dealt with subsidies. They also used examples of relationships, mechanisms and infrastructure that caused an "uneven" playing field in their opinion. I think the point is that it works both ways and the US3 are not the only aggrieved parties.

Where direct subsidies can be proved, by all means do something as an agreement was signed that precluded them but given the anti-trust immunity that the major U.S. carriers have for their alliances and the consolidation that has been allowed at the expense of consumers, I can't help but see some similarities with the behavior of the large U.S. companies in the late 19th and early 20th century. The US3 have gotten almost everything they have asked for and now they want more.
I think you're accidentally arguing against yourself. The CH 11 process, which was known to all signatories to these treaties, is arguably better than the system in place at some European airlines.

But no system comes even close to having the State being willing to back-stop any loss or difficulty, because the state is the owner of the airline. Hedge loss? No problem? Losing money on routes? No problem.

Nothing is a problem, really, when the state, the airline, and the owner are undistinguishable from one another. If they really want to inject restructuring into the discussion, the ME3 look foolish trying to equate the CH11 system to subsidies, when their own airline have the ultimate downside protection.
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Old 05-16-2015, 10:27 AM
  #223  
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Changing the subject from subsidies.

The ME3 are gutting the European carriers except for the European's flights to the U.S.

But it looks to me like the ME3 carriers will soon run out of routes that will have much effect on U.S. carriers. Even if they fly from every U.S. city to their Gulf hubs they will only poach the traffic out of the US to the middle east and southeast asia. Those Gulf hubs can't touch the U.S. traffic to Europe, South America, Japan, China, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I have answered all calls to action and agree they are unfairly subsidized. I work for Delta and am ****ed we have pulled out of India. But are they really a major threat to U.S. carriers? I honestly don't see the U.S. negotiating new agreements that allow them to fly from countries other than their own to the U.S. (i.e. Milan to JFK) And I don't see passengers preferring the ME carriers so much they would add 10 to 12 hours of connection/flight time to their trip to Europe.

Eventually it seems they are going to sink under the weight of all those huge aircraft orders.

JMHO
Hook
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Old 05-16-2015, 12:00 PM
  #224  
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Originally Posted by hookshot123 View Post
Changing the subject from subsidies.

The ME3 are gutting the European carriers except for the European's flights to the U.S.

But it looks to me like the ME3 carriers will soon run out of routes that will have much effect on U.S. carriers. Even if they fly from every U.S. city to their Gulf hubs they will only poach the traffic out of the US to the middle east and southeast asia. Those Gulf hubs can't touch the U.S. traffic to Europe, South America, Japan, China, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I have answered all calls to action and agree they are unfairly subsidized. I work for Delta and am ****ed we have pulled out of India. But are they really a major threat to U.S. carriers? I honestly don't see the U.S. negotiating new agreements that allow them to fly from countries other than their own to the U.S. (i.e. Milan to JFK) And I don't see passengers preferring the ME carriers so much they would add 10 to 12 hours of connection/flight time to their trip to Europe.

Eventually it seems they are going to sink under the weight of all those huge aircraft orders.

JMHO
Hook
This is exactly why they are hell bent on poaching US-EU (and other country to US) routes as well as trying to code share with any US airline that will have them.
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Old 05-16-2015, 01:17 PM
  #225  
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Originally Posted by Gillegan View Post
Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code is NOT a government subsidy. What IT IS is a mechanism that is not available in the rest of the world for a company to reorganize on backs of its shareholders, creditors and employees. The practical application of that is that it has allowed U.S. companies to reduce operating costs. In much of the rest of the world, similar reorganization is not available and they must either trudge on or liquidate. I believe that the ability to have something short of liquidation is enlightened BUT IT DOES uneven the competitive playing field from the perspective of companies that have to compete with that.

Not all of the White Paper or the accompanying 1000 page report dealt with subsidies. They also used examples of relationships, mechanisms and infrastructure that caused an "uneven" playing field in their opinion. I think the point is that it works both ways and the US3 are not the only aggrieved parties.

Where direct subsidies can be proved, by all means do something as an agreement was signed that precluded them but given the anti-trust immunity that the major U.S. carriers have for their alliances and the consolidation that has been allowed at the expense of consumers, I can't help but see some similarities with the behavior of the large U.S. companies in the late 19th and early 20th century. The US3 have gotten almost everything they have asked for and now they want more.
You're correct. What happens outside of the US is that companies liquidate and then the management of those companies open up a shiny new company without having to deal with chap 11. They're able to dump all of their employees - because the company is liquidated - and hire 'new' employees to their 'new' company at lower wages. The new company has a lower cost structure than the old one that was liquidated.
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Old 05-16-2015, 01:20 PM
  #226  
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Originally Posted by hookshot123 View Post
Changing the subject from subsidies.

The ME3 are gutting the European carriers except for the European's flights to the U.S.

But it looks to me like the ME3 carriers will soon run out of routes that will have much effect on U.S. carriers. Even if they fly from every U.S. city to their Gulf hubs they will only poach the traffic out of the US to the middle east and southeast asia. Those Gulf hubs can't touch the U.S. traffic to Europe, South America, Japan, China, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I have answered all calls to action and agree they are unfairly subsidized. I work for Delta and am ****ed we have pulled out of India. But are they really a major threat to U.S. carriers? I honestly don't see the U.S. negotiating new agreements that allow them to fly from countries other than their own to the U.S. (i.e. Milan to JFK) And I don't see passengers preferring the ME carriers so much they would add 10 to 12 hours of connection/flight time to their trip to Europe.

Eventually it seems they are going to sink under the weight of all those huge aircraft orders.

JMHO
Hook
The ME3 want unrestricted 5th, 8th, and 9th freedom rights in the US. Emirates was able to grease enough wheels in DC and Rome to get JFK-MXP. They were going to apply for several other 5th freedom routes, but I suspect that they're finding more roadblocks now.
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Old 05-16-2015, 01:55 PM
  #227  
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Originally Posted by hookshot123 View Post


Don't get me wrong, I have answered all calls to action and agree they are unfairly subsidized. I work for Delta and am ****ed we have pulled out of India. But are they really a major threat to U.S. carriers? I honestly don't see the U.S. negotiating new agreements that allow them to fly from countries other than their own to the U.S. (i.e. Milan to JFK) And I don't see passengers preferring the ME carriers so much they would add 10 to 12 hours of connection/flight time to their trip to Europe.
Let's see, they can fly from SEA, ATL, ORD, PDX, LAX, PHX, DFW, IAD, PHL, MCO, MIA and several others that I didn't think of, to DXB and pints beyond. We can fly from anywhere in the US to DXB, and then oh. hmmmm back to the USA. Our government doesn't give a damn about US carriers and US business as they have proven many times. If they can get more taxes and bribes from the emirates, they will favor them. It really is that simple. Yeah, they are a real threat. And lastly, if those long flights are cheap enough, people will add more time than you can imagine to save a few sheckles.

Originally Posted by hookshot123 View Post
Eventually it seems they are going to sink under the weight of all those huge aircraft orders.
Hopefully they go under, but with endless government money that is doubtful.
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Old 05-16-2015, 01:55 PM
  #228  
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
The ME3 want unrestricted 5th, 8th, and 9th freedom rights in the US. Emirates was able to grease enough wheels in DC and Rome to get JFK-MXP. They were going to apply for several other 5th freedom routes, but I suspect that they're finding more roadblocks now.
Nothing bigger bribes won't solve.
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Old 05-16-2015, 07:45 PM
  #229  
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Originally Posted by hookshot123 View Post
Changing the subject from subsidies.

The ME3 are gutting the European carriers except for the European's flights to the U.S.

But it looks to me like the ME3 carriers will soon run out of routes that will have much effect on U.S. carriers. Even if they fly from every U.S. city to their Gulf hubs they will only poach the traffic out of the US to the middle east and southeast asia. Those Gulf hubs can't touch the U.S. traffic to Europe, South America, Japan, China, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I have answered all calls to action and agree they are unfairly subsidized. I work for Delta and am ****ed we have pulled out of India. But are they really a major threat to U.S. carriers? I honestly don't see the U.S. negotiating new agreements that allow them to fly from countries other than their own to the U.S. (i.e. Milan to JFK) And I don't see passengers preferring the ME carriers so much they would add 10 to 12 hours of connection/flight time to their trip to Europe.

Eventually it seems they are going to sink under the weight of all those huge aircraft orders.

JMHO
Hook
This paper just came out:

http://www.openandfairskies.com/wp-c...-Traffic-1.pdf

Take a read and see if you change your mind about the damage these highly subsidized ME airlines are causing and could cause US airlines.

I totally got a boner when they started talking about regression analysis in the paper I linked above. Was that wrong?

The Etihad paper was.....well....lame for the same reasons mentioned above. The US government handed 36 Billion bucks to the US airlines when they went through restructuring? I must have missed that one. The US Government gave the US airlines 30 Billion through the PBGC program? The PBGC program isn't even funded by the US governement. Does the Risk Advisory Group, who wrote the analysis for Etihad, even have access to Google? Wait. Probably not since the government in the countries in question get to choose what their "loyal subjects" see and not see on the internet and in the media. The poor guys at Risk Advisory probably tried to Google "PBGC" and got a handsome picture and bio of one the sheikhs instead.
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Old 05-17-2015, 06:23 AM
  #230  
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Originally Posted by Big E 757 View Post
Don't pay any attention to Drofdeb, he/she is a ****ed off RJ pilot that blames ALPA and the legacy pilots for his/her $h11ty paycheck.
Its an opinion. Plenty of those floating around just like in-denial AHs . I'm going back to corporate to remedy my bum paycheck. Thank you for your concern .

You all are welcome to ignore all opinions that do not conform to your own. The US Airline RJ-pilot-chapter-11-subsidy issue is real. Dont throw stones when you live in a glass house Mr. DAL/UAL/AA.

Wake me up when the RJ industry is dead, and I'll reconsider. Until then enjoy the ME3 and reaping what you sow.
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