That sounds like a great way to do things. Any downsides to it in actual practice? Was it a biddable position or management selected like it is now?

I've never understood why DL doesn't harmonize/crosstrain IP and LCA pilots.

At United, the only non pilot seniority list instructors are the ground school/systems instructors. All sims/flight training devices or line instruction (IOE) are done by seniority list pilots.

And no pilot instructor got hired as an instructor right off the bat. They got hired as line pilots, who then applied to become an instructor in the training center. I believe they need to have 12 months of line flying before they can apply to the training center.

Most of the sim instructors are First Officers (legacy CAL had some Captains as instructors so they may still be doing that gig) due to the pay cap that is specified in the contract. Standard Captains and LCA's are paid at their respective rate plus an override for conducting whatever training they are doing.

DC

Um...Yeah.

But your rant does not answer the OP's question, which is what I was trying to do. :rolleyes:

The instructors were chosen by the Fleet Captain, normally you had a lot of time in the aircraft in position. The sim instructors were both OE LCA and SIM LCA....which I believe provided for more effective training, if something was not working in the sim, it showed up rapidly on the line and adjustments could be made to the sim training process. The max instructor pay was tied to the max monthly rate. If you taught in the sim I believe the max pay time was 80 hours, on the line as OE the max pay was 85 hours. Instructors had a pass perk of S3 passes. The pay was also based on what you held, not what you could hold.
To allow more than just a MSP culture in teaching the Instructor was given positive space to and from work and a hotel room.
Instructors were all Captains that were line pilots that taught approx 6 months of the year and flew the line the rest of the time...if there was a training crunch like now, we would have worked more. For the 330 fleet there was approx 40-60 instructors that did all of the sim and OE.

Like Nu said, only Line Capt instructors did full flight and any checking events.

Well, thanks for answering the question.

Sorry if it came off as a rant, grandpa. Did you yell at the kids to get off your lawn?

I was simply using your post to pose the question. As well as asked YOU specifically because you seem to be able to remember certain things from a long long time ago about issues like contracts, etc.

. Well, 30 years ago all the sim instructors were Captains. Everything from that point to today's training ops were concessions made in small bites, in every contract, to 'save money' obviously. My last 777 recurrent training was given to me by a F/O who's seniority number was about 11,000.

Oh, we had real ground schools back then too, with real systems courses taught by mechanics who knew the systems inside and out. Today you get a CD and watch it at home. All those ground school instructors are gone. Same with the Ops Specs group. We had a day long class just on Ops. Specs taught by Mother Malone. Another concession to save the company money.

Now...GET OFF MY LAWN!! :D

I've never understood the fascination with having an instructor be very senior. Some of the worst instructors I've ever had were extremely senior, and some of the best very junior. What matters most is how good they are at teaching, not how long they happen to have been at a particular company. All seniority is good for is determining bid status. It doesn't relate to experience or qualification in any way, and that's by design.

Maybe I'm new age, but I think ability to teach should be the biggest reason to hire someone as an instructor. There are plenty of crusty old captains who are good pilots, but couldn't teach if their lives depended on it.

That being said I do think there is value in having the instructor force be line seniority pilots so they can relate to line flying directly.

"Just saying" but I know of a guy who was a AA B777 sim instructor and never flew Part 135 nor Part 121 in his life.

circa early 2000's or late 90's

It is not a guarantee ....

Wow, wasn't that easier than your first response to a simple question?

I mostly agree with that, good instructors can come from all over the seniority list.

However, viewing through a different set of optics during negotiations, other things come into play.

If an instructor has to be able to hold CA, that means he's naturally senior. That means said CA will be offline most of his time. That means MORE CA's are needed to fly the line. IE; more upgrades. Which can shorten the life span of being an FO if so desired. It's not unlike the concept of having monthly credit caps for line pilots. If line pilots are only allowed to credit a certain amount a month and no more, it's means MORE staffing required. As in, MORE jobs.

As well as the paycheck that goes along with being a CA in the training center and the pay overrides, etc.