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SWA AAI final outcome?

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SWA AAI final outcome?

Old 05-01-2015, 03:35 PM
  #1  
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Default SWA AAI final outcome?

So how many Captains lost their Captain seat once they came over to SWA? Is that normal? Did Delta or Northwest Captains lose their seats (don't remember who bought, merged, etc..) Did any CAL or UAL Captains have to lose their seats and go back through upgrade evaluation again?

I think I read in the past the AirTran pilots lost most of their seniority but was wondering if that was really true and if so, how in this day and age when they were not bankrupt? I had the impression that there were laws or regulations,etc... to prevent such behavior (not sure how to describe or name it.)

Do all the former AirTran Captains get back to the Captain seat or were they taken away forever?

Is this normal for an airline to buy another and wipe out the career of a fellow aviator / airline pilot?

What is the rumor for the next airline in the Southwest crosshairs? Will all of those Captains lose their seats regardless of how many years they had been a Captain or have the laws, reg's, etc.... changed?

Last edited by Brakes Set; 05-01-2015 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 05-01-2015, 04:18 PM
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Southwest Airlines and AirTran Airways pilots overwhelmingly approved a plan to combine the seniority lists of the two carriers, with five out of six pilots voting in favor, their unions said Monday.

The approval clears the way for Southwest to begin bringing AirTran pilots and airplanes into Southwest Airlines, a process expected to begin in 2012 and be completed by the end of 2014.

The vote ratifies an agreement made two months ago by negotiators with the Southwest Airlines Pilots’ Association and the AirTran master executive council of the Air Line Pilots Association.

“I am extremely proud of our negotiators’ efforts to preserve and enhance the career value of every Southwest Airlines pilot and proud of our membership for demonstrating leadership by voting in favor of this negotiated list,” SWAPA president Steve Chase said.

“This agreement cements the bond between our pilot groups, and helps clear the path to the complete integration of the two airlines,” said Linden Hillman, MEC chairman at AirTran.

Because seniority helps determine rank, schedules, vacations and pay, a decision on how two labor groups are combined is among the most difficult issues in airline mergers.

ALPA and SWAPA negotiators had worked out an agreement July 16, but the ALPA master executive council voted a month later not to send it to its members for a vote. The two sides worked out a revised plan in September, and members began voting on it a month ago.

ALPA leaders told AirTran pilots in late September that Southwest officials had raised the possibility that if pilots didn’t agree to a seniority integration plan, Southwest might keep AirTran as a separate brand. The implication was that option would not be a good one for AirTran pilots.

According to the unions, 83.56 percent of Southwest pilots voting were in favor of the seniority plan, while 83.58 percent of AirTran pilots voting cast ballots for the plan. The unions said 95.1 percent of Southwest pilots voted, as did 93.99 percent of AirTran’s pilots.

Southwest has more than 6,000 pilots, compared to 1,700 at AirTran.

“While SWAPA’s preference will always be for fleet growth and not growth through acquisition, we trust that our company leaders will continue to take us in a profitable direction,” SWAPA president Chase said.

Southwest chairman and chief executive officer Gary Kelly “has stated that in combining these airlines ‘one plus one should equal more than two,’ ” Chase said. “Now with the certainty of an integrated seniority list, we are all looking forward to the continued success and growth of Southwest Airlines.”

Southwest executive president and chief operating officer Mike Van de Ven called the vote “a significant milestone in the integration of our two great airlines.” Chuck Magill, Southwest’s vice president of flight operations, called the decision “the beginning of an exciting future for our pilots and our airline.”

Keep reading for Hillman’s message to AirTran pilots.

November 7, 2011

Fellow Pilots,

It is decided. The Seniority Integration Agreement has been approved. With an 83.58 percent vote of the ATN pilots and an 83.56 percent vote of the SWAPA pilots – both in favor of ratification – our collective hands have extended and accepted Southwest’s offer as to how the pilot groups will be merged. As such, the next few weeks will be busy as we start the process of combining flight operations. The momentum of this integration will accelerate in the coming months and before long our last pilot will have made the transition to Southwest Airlines. Once a phoenix rising, AirTran Airways will have flown its final flight.

Before we look to the future, however, we must take time to recognize the contributions that the ATN pilots have made to AirTran Airways. We helped build an airline from scratch, and then rebuilt it again and again. The AirTran of 2011 is distinctly different from its precursors in 1993 and even from itself in 2001.Through it all, we remained steadfast in our dedication to the success of the company and the professional execution of our duties. These traits, our core ideals, set the foundation for a high quality experience from a low-fare carrier. By exceeding the expectations of both our passengers and our most ardent opponents, AirTran, perpetually the underdog, succeeded in the face of intense competition.

Similarly, through most of its 40-year history, Southwest and its employees were also underdogs. They were fortunate, however, to have the visionary leadership of Herb Kelleher and Colleen Barrett, who encapsulated the “Southwest Way:” a Warrior Spirit, a Servant’s Heart and a Fun-LUVing attitude. They created a whole corporate department to foster and preserve this culture, while we had to adopt these principles organically. We did it in a vacuum, amongst ourselves, because we knew that our future as airline pilots was dependant on the success of a business over which we had little control. This is our identity – professionals in the face of adversity.

Even now, we have sacrificed to ensure the success of the company. But, by ratifying this agreement, we, along with SWAPA pilots, have taken ownership of our pilot integration and the future of Southwest Airlines. From Portland, Maine to Portland, Oregon, Southwest Airlines will extend a reach only imagined when it began flying its first Dallas to Houston and San Antonio legs in 1971. CEO Gary Kelly has also spoken of his desire to push even further: to Mexico, Canada, Alaska and Hawaii. The synergies unleashed by the merger of our two airlines will power this expansion with nearly eight thousand pilots at the helm. Together, with every other employee, we will benefit from our improved competitive position and the opportunities created by this growth.

So let’s look ahead; not through rose colored glasses, but with plain sight. Our future lies with Southwest Airlines. In order to facilitate a smooth transition, we must focus on building upon those common traits which unite us with our peers, and we must recognize that it is in our collective interest to work together to help our new company navigate through uncharted territory.

With that in mind, I commend you on your unyielding professionalism. Together, we will write the next chapter of our careers.

In unity,

Linden Hillman, Chairman
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Old 05-01-2015, 04:23 PM
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Well, the details have been released to both pilot group now, so I figure I can post them here for everyone who was asking about it. It's ugly. Really ugly.


The top 1,646 slots go to SWA pilots.
The next 116 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 725 SWA pilots.
The next 208 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 1351 SWA pilots.
The next 581 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 2018 SWA pilots.
The first 142 AirTran FOs are ratio'd with the next 142 SWA pilots.
The rest of the 649 AirTran FOs are stapled to the bottom of the SWA FO list.
The pilots hired at SWA after the merger was announced are next.
The pilots hired at AirTran after the merger was announced are next.
The pilots hired at both carriers after the transaction closed on May 2 are in DOH order at the very bottom.


In short, what that means is that the very first AirTran pilot is number 1,647 on the list. After that, a minority of the AirTran captains are ratio'd in with the SWA captains. The majority of our captains are merged with SWA FOs. A small minority of our FOs are merged in with the bottom of the SWA FO list, and then 80% of our FOs are stapled (myself included). The average loss of relative seniority for us is 22%, with it being as much as 35% for those hardest hit. SWA pilots gain between 6-12% relative seniority.

So, there you have it. The MEC still has to vote on whether to send it out for a membership vote, so it's not final yet. That vote will probably take place in two weeks or
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Old 05-01-2015, 04:37 PM
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Default SWA AAI final outcome?

I have heard the argument was that the AirTran pilots got a windfall with WN pay rates. Have AirTran pilots (both seats) seen an increase, decrease or no change in their pay as a result of the merger and resorting seniority loss?
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Old 05-01-2015, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by VFA201 View Post
Well, the details have been released to both pilot group now, so I figure I can post them here for everyone who was asking about it. It's ugly. Really ugly.


The top 1,646 slots go to SWA pilots.
The next 116 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 725 SWA pilots.
The next 208 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 1351 SWA pilots.
The next 581 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 2018 SWA pilots.
The first 142 AirTran FOs are ratio'd with the next 142 SWA pilots.
The rest of the 649 AirTran FOs are stapled to the bottom of the SWA FO list.
The pilots hired at SWA after the merger was announced are next.
The pilots hired at AirTran after the merger was announced are next.
The pilots hired at both carriers after the transaction closed on May 2 are in DOH order at the very bottom.


In short, what that means is that the very first AirTran pilot is number 1,647 on the list. After that, a minority of the AirTran captains are ratio'd in with the SWA captains. The majority of our captains are merged with SWA FOs. A small minority of our FOs are merged in with the bottom of the SWA FO list, and then 80% of our FOs are stapled (myself included). The average loss of relative seniority for us is 22%, with it being as much as 35% for those hardest hit. SWA pilots gain between 6-12% relative seniority.

So, there you have it. The MEC still has to vote on whether to send it out for a membership vote, so it's not final yet. That vote will probably take place in two weeks or
Just a thought: Before merging AirTran had 140 airplanes to SWA's roughly 600, so for the ratio sections you mention it at first glance makes sense that you'd have about a 1:4 ratio, no? Open to correction--
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Old 05-01-2015, 04:50 PM
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Old 05-01-2015, 07:55 PM
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Wow talk about a SH!t sandwich.
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:19 PM
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1) Corporate entities decide merger/acquisition is in INVESTORS best interest.
2) Corporations announce merger/acquisition.
3) Unions informed of proposed merger/acquisition.
4) 4 party talks take place (union/management) to confer about best practices going forward.
5) 4 party talks produce process agreement.
6) Process agreement lays out desired path towards integration.
7) Process agreement states:
WHEREAS, Section 13(b) of Allegheny-Mohawk authorizes the Parties to utilize an agreed-upon alternative method to resolve the seniority integration issues; and
WHEREAS, Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (“SWAPA”), the Air Line Pilots Association (“ALPA”), Southwest and AirTran desire to utilize an alternative process as set forth in this Agreement for the creation of an Integrated Master Seniority List; and
WHEREAS, SWAPA, ALPA, Southwest and AirTran also wish to provide for the orderly combination of Southwest Pilots and AirTran Pilots under a single Collective Bargaining Agreement (“CBA”) and representation by a single collective bargaining representative within a single transportation system under the Railway Labor Act, as amended, 45 U.S.C. Section 151 et seq. (“RLA”).
8) Tentative agreement reached by both negotiating committees.
9) ALPA MEC does not send initial TA to membership for ratification vote.
10) Second tentative agreement reached by both negotiating committees.
12) Second TA is sent to both unions for membership ratification.
13) Both unions ratify agreement by 83% with more than 93% union participation at both unions.

These are the facts and they are indisputable.
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Old 05-02-2015, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by shoelu View Post
1) Corporate entities decide merger/acquisition is in INVESTORS best interest.
2) Corporations announce merger/acquisition.
3) Unions informed of proposed merger/acquisition.
4) 4 party talks take place (union/management) to confer about best practices going forward.
5) 4 party talks produce process agreement.
6) Process agreement lays out desired path towards integration.
7) Process agreement states:
WHEREAS, Section 13(b) of Allegheny-Mohawk authorizes the Parties to utilize an agreed-upon alternative method to resolve the seniority integration issues; and
WHEREAS, Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (“SWAPA”), the Air Line Pilots Association (“ALPA”), Southwest and AirTran desire to utilize an alternative process as set forth in this Agreement for the creation of an Integrated Master Seniority List; and
WHEREAS, SWAPA, ALPA, Southwest and AirTran also wish to provide for the orderly combination of Southwest Pilots and AirTran Pilots under a single Collective Bargaining Agreement (“CBA”) and representation by a single collective bargaining representative within a single transportation system under the Railway Labor Act, as amended, 45 U.S.C. Section 151 et seq. (“RLA”).
8) Tentative agreement reached by both negotiating committees.
9) ALPA MEC does not send initial TA to membership for ratification vote.
10) Second tentative agreement reached by both negotiating committees.
12) Second TA is sent to both unions for membership ratification.
13) Both unions ratify agreement by 83% with more than 93% union participation at both unions.

These are the facts and they are indisputable.
Give me a little bit of time to be able to post more extensively with some other "indisputable facts".

You and many other SW pilot's arrogance is utterly mind-blowing. If I got the seniority and Cptn seat windfall that you ^#+\ers got by way of threats & lies, then I'd be embarrassed to show my face in the terminal.

Regarding the previous poster's question on pay cuts/pay raises...I was a seven year Cptn and fairly senior in my base. After downgrading and having to move to another base (because they closed mine down), I was bidding 21% less AS AN FO in seat than I was as an AT Cptn due to losing 32% relative seniority. I'm also taking home 20-25% less pay, but I have one ex-AT Cptn friend who made 44K less last year and another who was more senior at AT who lost 60K annually.

Paint it anyway you want but a lot of us will be looking for vindication for the rest of our careers. Hope it was worth it....
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Old 05-02-2015, 04:49 AM
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Give me a break you guys.

This merger is brought to you by management and the SLI is history. Move forward now. You want change? Let's get some unity in the home stretch of these contract negotiations and stop fighting among ourselves on a public forum (just what management wants to see, a way to get the 51 percent solution)

- Someone junior to all of you


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