UAL hiring?
 

I've heard rumors it's coming. Anyone have any inside info?

I hope those rumors are true.

Not yet. UAL still has 33 guys to offer recall to, then they go back up the bypass list in reverse seniority. There are about 850 on the bypass list. That list could go fast. Many of them have moved on. When they get the call, it is either come back or resign. UAL estimates 300 recalls this year.

Unless they're on military leave, as I recall.

Pilots turning scarce as demand takes wing
 

Pilots turning scarce as demand takes wing
After years of layoffs and pay cuts, expansion of air travel creates shortage of qualified crews
By Julie Johnsson
Chicago Tribune staff reporter

February 4, 2007

For the first time since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, all major U.S. airlines are hiring pilots or recalling those laid off during the industry's five-year downturn.

But the airlines are discovering that many of the 10,000 pilots who lost their jobs during those bleak years aren't interested in returning to their old lives.

Many pilots, faced with salary cuts of 35 percent or more, moved to overseas carriers, such as Emirates Airline and Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. Others took higher-paying jobs with overnight carriers such as FedEx Corp. and United Parcel Service Inc.

Joe Marquardt, 50, left a 17-year career at Northwest Airlines last year for Emirates, as the Minnesota-based carrier phased out the DC-9 jets he flew.

He already had lost one-third of his salary in pay cuts, Marquardt said, and he faced a demotion to a smaller plane, which would mean another pay reduction.

"It got to the point where we couldn't keep the house," Marquardt said.

Now, Marquardt enjoys a life of golf and beachcombing in Dubai, as well as the free housing provided by Emirates, which employs him as a Boeing 777 captain.

"It's hard to match that back home," Marquardt said.

After slashing pilot jobs and pay to survive the last downturn, old-line carriers may find it tougher to hire pilots to keep pace with the industry's rebound, experts say. In fact, they appear to be facing a shortage in the decade ahead.

The trend is a byproduct of the loss of financial security and prestige suffered by the airlines that have long dominated U.S. travel, increased recruiting of American pilots by foreign carriers and the global boom in commercial aviation and airliner sales.

"It is a wild and crazy time, and it's really just begun," said Kit Darby, an expert on pilot hiring trends and pay. He is president of Atlanta's Air Inc.

About one-third of the world's airline pilots work in the United States, the largest market for air travel. But U.S. pilots are becoming hot commodities for overseas carriers, which need large numbers of experienced pilots to fly the fleets of wide-body aircraft they have on order from Chicago's Boeing Co. and Europe's Airbus SAS.

Boeing predicts that the total number of planes used by airlines around the world will more than double by 2025, to 35,970. To keep pace, Darby estimates airlines will need to hire more than 210,000 pilots globally, more than double the number currently working.

Moving the mandatory retirement for pilots to age 65 from age 60, as proposed by the Federal Aviation Administration last week, will help a little. Darby estimates that relaxing retirement rules will reduce U.S. airlines' hiring by about 3,800 jobs during the next five years.

"That's only a drop in the bucket compared to the need," he said. "There are many, many airplanes coming, and with them large increases in air service."

Demand from light jets

That's not including the competition for pilots that airlines will face from air taxi operators flying a new breed of jets that carry between three and five passengers.

Merrill Lynch estimates that 925 of these aircraft, known as very light jets, will be delivered by 2010. That's up from the 21 jets that rolled out of factories in 2006. And all of these planes will need certified jet pilots in their cockpits.

Don Osmundson, vice president for flight operations at Florida-based DayJet Corp., said his company plans to hire about five pilots for each of the 239 Eclipse 500 jets it has on order.

Once it passes regulatory hurdles, DayJet plans to fly business travelers to destinations of their choosing in Florida and, eventually, other states in the Southeast. DayJet doesn't plan to fly on weekends, and its pilots will return to their home bases every evening.

Osmundson hopes that will be a draw for airline pilots, sick of a vagabond lifestyle that involves days away from home. He says DayJet has received 1,700 applications, many of them from airline pilots who either opted for early retirement or were forced from their jobs at age 60.

"The fact is that even at the major carriers, the job is not what it used to be," said Osmundson, who's a former vice president at Continental Airlines.

Many pilots still aspire to fly large aircraft for major carriers such as Elk Grove Township-based United Airlines, which has about 6,500 pilots, down from more than 10,000 in 2001. Captains at these carriers still earn six figures and have jobs that let them see the world.

But such jobs are no longer considered aviation's plum posts: Pilots' hours are longer, and their pay is lower.

United Airlines has offered jobs to all of the 2,172 pilots it furloughed, industry parlance for "laid off," during the downturn. About 1,000 of them have returned to the airline, while others passed on the initial job offers.

Now, United is moving through its list of furloughed pilots, whittled down to about 800, for a second and final time as it plans to add 300 pilots this year.

"Guys have to make a decision whether they're coming back to United or not," said Steven Derebey, a Boeing 737 captain at United and spokesman for its pilots union. "When they reach the end of that[list], they will have to start looking to the outside for new pilots."

FedEx and UPS, whose pilots were once derided as "cargo dogs," have long since displaced United Airlines, US Airways and Delta Air Lines at the top of the pay scale in the United States. The most senior pilots at the freight carriers earn about $40,000 more annually than their counterparts at the old-line carriers.

Foreign flag carriers, who would not have contemplated luring pilots from the major U.S. airlines during the 1990s, are holding recruiting drives here.

Cathay Pacific hired about 55 American pilots last year to fly its Boeing 747 cargo planes, said Nick Rhodes, director of flight operations for the Hong Kong-based airline.

Cathay, which has a cargo base in Chicago, plans to add 65 U.S. pilots this year and close to 100 in 2008, said Rhodes. About 10 percent of the carrier's 2,100 pilots are Americans, most of whom joined the airline during the past three to four years.

The six major U.S. airlines are adding pilots to replace those lost to retirement and attrition, and to keep operations moving smoothly as they keep their airplanes in the air for longer stretches of time.

So far, Continental Airlines and Delta Air Lines are the only two who are seeking new pilots. Continental Airlines plans to hire 336 pilots in 2007, after adding 491 in 2006. Delta Air Lines, which saw a large number of pilots take early retirement, plans to hire 200 pilots during 2007.

American Airlines, meanwhile, began recalling the first of its furloughed pilots in January. The nation's largest airline plans to rehire 70 pilots through April, then add about 30 pilots per month after that.

US Airways plans to recall 284 pilots this year, while Northwest Airlines says it will rehire 150 pilots in the first six months of 2007.

The carriers will need to step up hiring as they replenish their aircraft fleets, something Boeing executives predict will happen during the next two years. And that's when the real hiring crunch will begin, Darby predicted.

Training adds to cost

Airlines will face large training costs to bring on the new cadres of pilots, an expense most haven't encountered since 2001. And any shortages could give pilots unions additional leverage to seek higher wages from the carriers.

"It's a huge need, and they're going to be working hard to solve it," Darby said.

Others are more optimistic.

"It's possible you'll see some spot shortages, but I really don't think you'll see long-term shortages," said economist Daniel Kasper, managing director and head of the transportation practice at LECG Group, a Boston-based consulting group.

"To the extent that airlines are having trouble finding pilots, salaries will go up, and that will draw military pilots."

Even so, old-line carriers no longer can claim a monopoly on hiring the best and the brightest pilots.

The best recruiters, the overseas airliners are discovering, are the pilots themselves. Marquardt, for one, has started a blog for pilots pondering following in his footsteps.

Cathay Pacific is drawing pilots in their mid-30s from the likes of United Airlines, who are impatient to fly the new Boeing 777 and 747 aircraft. They would have to wait a decade for such jets at American carriers, which reserve their biggest aircraft for pilots with the most seniority.

"Young pilots don't think about [pensions] or medical care. They just want to strap themselves into a new 777," Rhodes said.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...i-business-hed

Wow do I detect a little bit of mainline SJS there?????

As for pensions I hate to say it but I think they're a thing of the past.... Which is why Im using 401K, IRA and a stock broker to plan my retirement. All in my name..... and will more than likely still be there when I retire...

Great article posting! And timely too, thanks for passing that on to the rest of us!

Yeah, what he said. Very interesting read. Maybe after reading that, a certain segment of the pilot population will settle down, stop the insults and name-calling over the age 60 rule, and learn to have a little respect for one another.

"Joe Marquardt, 50, left a 17-year career at Northwest Airlines last year for Emirates, as the Minnesota-based carrier phased out the DC-9 jets he flew.

He already had lost one-third of his salary in pay cuts, Marquardt said, and he faced a demotion to a smaller plane, which would mean another pay reduction.

"It got to the point where we couldn't keep the house," Marquardt said."

Seriously, 17 years at NWA and you couldn't pay off your house before then? If anyone else is in this situation, buy the Rich Dad Poor Dad book series and consult a financial advisor.

When did NWA phase out the DC-9? I just saw one the other day. I'm sure they meant DC-10. Not that accuracy in aviation reporting means anything to the press.

You are correct sir. They accept recall and immediately go on LOA.

Maybe it is a good thing this rule change will take 18-24 months or more. That will be enough time to bring back the furloughees as the age 60 guys retire.

Maybe he had a few problems in his life that took a toll on his financial situation. Sick family members, maybe bad financial advice from "qualified financial advisors" or simply poor planning and/or judgement on his part.

Success in life and all those things is certainly not guaranteed.

Then again, maybe the individual in the story is simply not as smart as some claim to be. :eek:

What the story should tell you is how significantly things have changed in the industry for this to occur. There's the real news.

Perhaps you can offer something positive to this thought?

Who's to say he didn't pay off his first house. Sold it then took that money and bought a much nicer house after paying off his 15 year mortgage 2 years earlier.Open ended comments like yours show how "tunnel visioned" many are in this world.

I know a guy here at CAL who flys his A$$ off and makes 200K a year but doesn't have a damn thing because he donates almost all of his off time and his money volunteering and saving cats. I think he has 20 acres he inherited and keeps about 200 rescued cats at any given time. Why don't you explain to us how big of a loser he is.

Go count your money if that is all that matters to you.

:cool: Not phased out, but not replacing them with anything other than CRJ-900 and EMB 175s. About 50% less DC-9s then there were 10 years ago....slowing going away. IMHO one more sideletter where we give the company permission to put full 86 seats in the CRJ-900 (vice scoped 76 seats) and we'll be on our way to dropping all DC-9s.

So is UAL a good company to fly for?

I see things haven't changed with the pilots - still picking up time and trips for themselves. Also, they haven't had any alpa leadership with real backbone in quite some time.

Clearly management is in the driver's seat and will be for quite some time unless some real union leadership steps forward. Shame.

The FIN program made me laugh when I saw it.

It is not as bad as Frontseat makes it out to be. He does not work here. Our big iron captains make 182 per hour, if he is making that on a gulfstream, more power to him. My United Airlines experience is this....I bid reserve on the 767. I have flown an average of 37 hours per month for the last 3 months, although I did bust my arse during the summer. We still have work rules on the 757/767/777/747. Basically no work rules on the 737/A320 other than "look back" which will give you 5 hrs per day if you turn a wheel. The wages of course are depressing. I made 169 per hour as a 5 yr 777 FO back in the day (25% more than 5 yr FEDEX widebody FOs make today)!! Now I make 101 per hour as a 10 yr 767 FO....pathetic I know....But I have 10 years invested, I can hold 737 captain (25% raise) if/when I choose to bid it, and it is still fun. So I will stick it out and hope for a better contract down the road. BTW, 24 hour layovers in Hawaii do not blow!!! :)

Not conflicting, I never said 182 per hour for a widebody captain was not bad. I just don't know many corporate jet guys making 175K per year. Good for you. The wages are depressing, especially compared to what we made before. I mean talk about a lifestyle change!! I voted yes on the contract. And I believe the HUGE savings to the company contributed greatly to the survival of UAL. Not coolaide drinking here, just being realistic. People talk as if there was some big choice to be made. Well, look at Delta. Look at NWA. They did the same thing. Bankruptcy is a *****.

73% of the UAL pilots voted yes to get rid of their A fund, increase their pay cuts from 33% up to 48%, sodomize the narrow body work rules (only the JR pilots of course).....WHICH BY THE COMPANY'S ESTIMATE SAVED $140M PER YEAR !!!. News Flash: United was losing $800M per quarter. Employee cost accounted for less than 17% of operating cost, (thats all employees). UAL pilots should see the UAL bancruptcy lawyer explaining "how to boil a Frog", if that doesnt P--s you off nothing will. Mis-information is what got the contract passed, and dont be fooled, employee pay cuts resulted in single digit savings at UAL.....it was just managements chance to change industry wages for ever and they had the running scared support of ALPA. Do you really think UAL would have gone under without your pay cuts???

We have the same going on here. Pilots on furlough and guys picking up extra flying. A guy on the jump seat the other day was bragging about having flown 95 hrs. They're the same ones that say, "oh, they don't really make more than us, because we can fly more hours than they can". Complete f*$@!ng idiots.

"Newsflash": Labor costs in 2001 for the full year were 36% of operating expenses, not 17%. Even today, as in the last quarter, labor costs were 23% of operating expenses. BTW, that is a 13 point drop as a percentage of operating costs, and a 57% drop in actual $$$$. Single digit savings my arse!!

Labor costs in 2001 were 7.0B, in 2005 they were 4.0B.

ref. http://ir.united.com/phoenix.zhtml?c...-reportsAnnual



No, I don't think UAL would have gone under, but I do believe UAL would have abrogated our contract through the bankruptcy process without our consent. That could have been worse than what we got. I also believe that no bank would have provided the exit financing with billion dollar unfunded pensions. UAL would have had to get the financing from private sources like the Icahns and Checcis of the world.

you do realize that 4.0B is for EVERYONE at united? mgmt, salaried ees, ramp workers, pilots, fa's, janitors, etc.

the union should be saying things to people picking up OT with people on furlough, that is pure selfishness and greed. ALPA and APA have BOTH looked the other way on this crap.

1. Yes, of course. Coffee ***** was talking about all employees too.


2. I agree. But it certainly was not the point of my post.

Let us be honest here, the reason Tilton and his gang didn't want private financing was that they knew they were history, most likelly without the benefits they recently awarded themselves.

Maybe so, but I for one am glad they didn't go the equity financing route. Look what happened at TWA and NWA in the past. And, lets be honest here, UAL could not have obtained a reasonalble loan with billions of dollars of pension liabilities. Sad but true.

Why would anyone want to work at UAL ??? :rolleyes:

jsled - I agree with your post here and the ones you posted below it. I too voted for the crappy contract we now have with the same gun to my head that we all did. Hopefully in the next contract we can recoup some of what we lost, but it won't be easy.

I guess that now makes two of us that reluctantly voted yes. At least FrontSeat has a choice now of whether or not he/she wants to come back or continue with his/her posh G5 job. If we all could be so lucky to have such a choice!

I don't think the union can officially come out and say "don't pick up trips, don't jr/sr man." It has to come through the grapevine or the company could claim it's some sort of illegal job action. Unfortunately, many still are not aware of the damage it does to everyones' careers to regularly jr/sr man and these folks are not receptive to unofficial channels.

There is however a contractual limit to how much one can fly with people on furlough, and it is lower than the regular limit.