Historical pay
 

Just looking to gauge things these days...

Since the new United pay scale, I wanted to know what it was like before people weren't getting paid as much as they should. Not looking for an argument about who pays best or pay better. But what was it like in the golden days?

I talked to and old us air guy. He said the quote was "6 dollars a minute"

Flew with a guy said he did the shuttle BOS-LGA and that's it. Made 270k before 9/11. After made 140k.

So what was it like back then. What were the pay scales?

I believe One of the legacies had $300/hr narrow body CAs back in '99?

That's a lot of money back then and that $300/hr with inflation is a lot of money now.

I heard $170ish for us air 737 FO pay at 4th years pay

In the '70s, it was "a Cadilliac a month". Price that out with today's car prices?

GF

Captains today can still buy a 70's Cadillac a month.

That would be 100K/month (escalade). I could make ends meet on that.

In 1988, DAL 757/767 pay was 13,000. a month.

Highest usair FO pay ever got was around $150/hr. for 767 12th year. This was right before 911.

Other guys have em, and they'll probably be able to beat me before I get to computer I have them on. But I can give the UAL/DAL C00/01 rates, as well as the NWA rates. I have AA's but can't remember if they're the concession rates or not.

.

Were they waiting on a "parity +" provision to kick in with DAL C01? Or did they need AA to ink as well?

I'm not familiar with all the parity plus details.

Send them over

Ca? FO?.....

Surely you jest, that would be left seat money. 75 hr. cap

$26k adjusted for inflation. Pretty crazy.

Worser, I bought my house in ATL for $120,000 in 1978. Zillow shows it in the mid 700's now. Yikes!

Forgive the formatting. UAL C2000

737-200 FO year 2-12 78.43-141.71
Airbus FO 88.95-158.86
767 FO 93.09-165-66
744 FO 130.33-217.97

CA rates bottom-top
737-200 186.46-207.49
Airbus CA 211.56-232.59
767 CA 221.55-242.55
744CA 312.53-318.99

At contract's end 2004 IIRC/max rates each seat;
737-200 FO-154.75 CA-226.58
Airbus FO-173.48 CA-253.99
767 FO-180.91 CA-264.87
744 FO-243.03 CA-355.82

I'm too lazy to type out DAL's, but DAL's pre BK max rate;

2000 777 CA 268.01
2004 777 CA 319.61

2000 777 FO 183.05
2004 777 FO 218.29

2000 737NG CA 215.12
2004 737NG CA 256.53

2000 737NG FO 146.93
2004 737NG FO 175.21

Now, for "fun", the UAL BK rates. Just the max rate.......

NB FO-93.66 CA-137.14
756 FO-109.64 CA-158.94
74/777 FO-129.70 CA-189.89

USAir BK rates, ROUND 1 effective July 1, 2002. Round 2 was brutal, more in line with UAL's posted above IIRC. Just the max per seat, effective May 1, 2008 had it gone that long before round 2;

F-28 FO 78.40
73/Airbus FO 121.81
76 FO 140.27
330 FO 155.26

F-28 CA 114.78
73/Airbus CA 178.34
76 CA 205.38
330 CA 227,32

Cripes, even with these horrible bankruptcy rates, why does anyone become a lifer at a regional topping out at maybe $100/hr??? are there really that many guys with such a hard on for the left seat they can't bear to be an FO again for anything?

feltf4,

You may find the attachment interesting which is a contract comparison by the Delta MEC from 2001.

I don't have data prior to deregulation in 1978...though we've all heard the cadillac per month analogy. Post deregulation, Delta Contract 2001 (June 2001) set the high water mark. Of note, senior Captain B777 pay was $319.61 for 2004. The BLS.gov inflation calculator suggests a 2015 pay rate of $401.02 or about 25.5% increase. Also consider that Delta provided a 60% FAE defined benefit pre ch 11 reorg. Nothing has come close to the inflation adjusted value yet of contract 2001...though, there's noteworthy progress.

-By Jan 2019, American's Jan 2015 contract sets group IV Captain pay at $320.29/hr and year 1 FO pay at $84.45/hr. Group II year 2 FO is $126.54.

-By Nov 2020, FedEx's Nov 2015 contract has year 15 widebody Captain pay at $335.56 by Nov 2020 and year 1 FO pay at $81.13 for NB FO and $84.10 for WB FO. Year 2 FO pay is $156.39 NB and $190.82 WB. Again, that is year 2 FOs!

-By Jan 2018, United's Jan 2016 UPA extension LOA has widebody Captain pay at $320.86 and year 1 FO pay at $83.26. Year 2 SNB FO pay is $96.28, junior Captain pay on SNB (CS100, E190/E195) are $178.61 year 1. I believe junior Captain pay this is a new industry high.

Luv flying

Thanks. This is all eye opening..

So although $305 for a wide body at United is impressive it's really not a new thing given 2004 rates that have been listed...

Interesting. I was still in high school learning to fly in 2004, I knew pilots made "mega" bucks, but now that I'm in the big leagues it's interesting to see where we are now and where it actually was before. (Only talking pay rates nothing more)

Although the 2004 UAL pay rates were quite lucrative we never made it to those rates. In January 2003 all United pilots took a 30% cut in hourly rates. Also, by that time many pilots had downgraded and/or were furloughed. So, a huge chunk of pilots took well more than a 30% paycut, including me (100%).

Then I took a job at a United Express carrier in the spring of 2003 making just 14% of what I was making at United in December of 2002, just 4 months earlier.

It's good to see that contracts are trending northward once again, but we are still short of UAL C2000 in many areas.

GP

Guppypuppy makes the best point.

But the other big take away was mentioned above you, the inflation adjustment.

It's been said before, the NEW contracts in many regards are simpply the CONCESSIONARY contracts adjusted for inflation, plus maybe a little. But HARDLY what the pre 9/11 and pre concessionary rates were.

And although pilots are seeing the BEST seniority progression in the last 15+ years at the legacies, keep in mind how few on the list are actually making those "maga bucks".

As in, you don't get hired and slide into a 777 CA seat the next day ;)

I am no expert on inflation, but it does seem a little unrealistic to index to that all the time.
I mean a Cadilac now has A/C blowing through the seats, a 70's Cadilac built brand new today would be much cheaper to build than a 2016 Cadilac. So the cost increase inflation uses is also product improvement. I use to hear it form older guys all the time how much more building a house cost and they were for forgetting the 20k house built in the 60's didn't have 12' ceilings, granite countertops, central A/C, post tension cables in the slab etc etc. A 60's house built identical would be much cheaper and a true reflection of inflation.

You need to look at historical pay as a percentage of revenue, otherwise you won't know how much the company is stealing from you. Historically, pilot pay was 10-15% or revenue, today, at companies like Delta, pay is 3-4% of revenue. Thus, pay has to go up around 500% for you to be making a fair wage that has been with most pilots through the decades. In comparison, top executive pay is up 4000+% over the same time period.

But that does not really matter, the fact is you could buy a"state of the art" car, now you can't. And production efficiency must have increased, together with costs.

Cadillacs have improved a lot, but so has flight safety. If GM can demand more money because they are selling a better product, then so can pilots, because we are selling a better service. :)

Does anyone know what the pay/work rules/schedules were for some of the majors before deregulation?

I remember reading an article once about how much a 747 captain before deregulation made in at the time 2008 dollars. About $926k.

So adjusted for inflation, the highest hourly rate post-1978 was at United and about $446/hour. Like Gone Flying and others, I'd love to know more about pre-Deregulation if anyone has that data. Numbers I've heard range from half a million to $926,000 (thanks Phoenix). But if someone has substantive data, please please share. If we're going by the "Cadillac standard," a new CTS runs a little over $45,000, so you'd be looking at ~$550,000 a year.
This is also a smart post.