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NAI just got approved...

Old 04-16-2016, 09:53 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Papoo View Post
My earnings have zero to do with generations of US legacy pilots doing the lifting. Sorry, but l have to remind that poster that there are other nations outside the four soon-to-be-walls of the US. I work in a country that has loose employment laws, for a company which is majority owned by a British family business conglomerate, and unions have limited power or effectiveness. So, yes, my contract is a product of market forces. For some, it's not enough to stay, and for others it is. The package will adjust accordingly. It certainly isn't driven by my esteemed piers in the US, nor has it anything to do with collective bargaining. I wish we had more collective bargaining procedures and laws to protect us, but we don't.
You couldn't be more wrong. The U.S., for better or worse, had over 40% of the airline business and set the standard for the pilot compensation along with Canada, Europe, Australia and a few others. Without ALPA and the other pilot unions you would now be making a fraction of what you are even though your employer, Swire, is one of the most anti-labor firms on the planet. Fortunately for you they still have to pay pilots compensation that is kept well above what the market would bear without pilot unions around the world.

Remember the 49ers!
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:08 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by David Puddy View Post
That is a convenient argument. Are you a socialist or do you believe in Capitalism? If you are a Socialist then you should also believe that gates should be shared by all at major airports like JFK and ORD. But they aren't.

If NAI wants to serve HPN or PVD from LGW or DUB with an uncomfortable 737-800Max why should that bother you since the U.S. legacies have all of the gates at the major hubs? NAI targets a different demographic than the U.S. legacies - I doubt many high yield business travelers will pick NAI. Again, not fully defending NAI but they do have what seems like a successful model and it is therefore seen as a big threat. The regulators probably surmised that the number of consumers who could benefit from lower average airfares living in the U.S. and in Europe far exceeds the number of airline employees concerned about their wages.
The same business model destroyed our domestic maritime industry.
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:09 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Flytolive View Post
You couldn't be more wrong. The U.S., for better or worse, had over 40% of the airline business and set the standard for the pilot compensation along with Canada, Europe, Australia and a few others. Without ALPA and the other pilot unions you would now be making a fraction of what you are even though your employer, Swire, is one of the most anti-labor firms on the planet. Fortunately for you they still have to pay pilots compensation that is kept well above what the market would bear without pilot unions around the world.

Remember the 49ers!
I respectfully disagree. From the outset, CX had zero Union. The pay and conditions were set by the fact that they had to pay handsomely to recruit people away from home. In today's market, they bear less of that burden, but plenty of people are looking elsewhere.

It there may be some very tenuous historical link to ALPA in the past, but it's been completely independent and at the whim of management for decades here.

Incidentally, unlike Emirates, we only have a small number of Americans at CX. So, what ALPA are achieving now is having much less of an impact on our crewing. I understand EK are losing Americans left and right who are going back home.

If they want to staff their jets, and have to look overseas for the crew, then they have to pay a bit extra. They'll try and find the lowest number, and the bar is set, QED. It's got nothing to do with ALPA. Going back to the birth of the industry 90 years ago and claiming to have set the bar is a little disingenuous in this day and age. The industry has had nearly a century to figure out where to set the bar, regardless of the starting point.

I'm intimately familiar with the 49'ers, which if anything, goes to show that unionisation has little impact here - CX were unionised by that time. It's completely irrelevant in the context of this discussion, and again, zero to do with ALPA.
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:11 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by NASA View Post
Hey genious, a large portion of the uber drivers are ex yellow cab drivers. Horrible comparison..Also, you losers who are talking trash against Norwegian, first try to fix your own airline problems at home..Last I checked, the regionals still pay crap and so do many other flying jobs in the U.S...
And your solution is to copy the regional model (outsourced everything) into the current international flying?
There go those jobs too....

How has the outsourcing gone for you at NASA ?
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:18 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Papoo View Post
I respectfully disagree. From the outset, CX had zero Union. The pay and conditions were set by the fact that they had to pay handsomely to recruit people away from home.
Thanks for respectfully proving the point.

"They had to pay handsomely to recruit people (pilots) away from home." Home being countries that produce significant numbers of pilots. Countries in which pilot compensation has been raised well above what the market would bear without pilot unions. Why do you think Cathay and other airlines fight against unionization so hard?

Respectfully, you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. The only question is whether your ignorance is willful or not.
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:31 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Flytolive View Post
Thanks for respectfully proving the point.

"They had to pay handsomely to recruit people (pilots) away from home." Home being countries that produce significant numbers of pilots. Countries in which pilot compensation has been raised well above what the market would bear without pilot unions. Why do you think Cathay and other airlines fight against unionization so hard?

Respectfully, you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. The only question is whether your ignorance is willful or not.
Firstly, CX don't fight unionisation hard. They aren't able to. The weakness of our union lies in the employment ordinance of Hong Kong.

Secondly - you may wish to give ALPA credit, I get it, you're a protectionist. There's absolutely no way of knowing where we would be if the bar wasn't set by unions in the western countries.

I could easily eager an argument that we'd be far better off over here. ALPA introduced the seniority list. That's single-handedly strangled so much of our earning potential by itself.

Equally, I can wager that it wasn't the unions that went above and beyond, but the fact that they had employment laws which allowed them to do it. The unions worldwide have done nothing but ****-up for decades.

Face it, ALPA has absolutely enabled management to absolutely destroy the potential that was once there in a US career. If you don't see that, then I'll wonder the same about 'wilful ignorance' as you.
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Old 04-16-2016, 11:11 AM
  #87  
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Well Papoo, it's reassuring to know that you've got it all figured out!

Thank you for your contribution to the profession...
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Old 04-16-2016, 11:12 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Papoo View Post
Firstly, CX don't fight unionisation hard. They aren't able to.
Originally Posted by Papoo View Post
I'm intimately familiar with the 49'ers
Your contradictions and ignorance are getting embarrassing.

Originally Posted by Papoo View Post
I could easily eager an argument that we'd be far better off over here. ALPA introduced the seniority list. That's single-handedly strangled so much of our earning potential by itself.
More history you don't know.
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Old 04-16-2016, 11:22 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Flytolive View Post
Your contradictions and ignorance are getting embarrassing.

More history you don't know.
CX don't fight unionisation hard. We are already unionised.

CX may fight the UNION hard. But that's not what you said.

The 49'ers wasn't fighting unionisation. It was fighting the UNION. In much the same way that US management cut legacy pay by enormous percentages, with ALPA as the messenger.

Regardless of your semantics on ALPA's history, just take a look around. The top jobs are reasonable again, but haven't been for over a decade.

The rest of the US industry, from an employee perspective, is in an utter state of disrepair. A disaster. How the vast majority of a unionised, highly skilled profession in one country can be on such derogatory terms is beyond comprehension. That is, until you realise that the unions allowed it to happen.

You can pretend that's a job well done, I think otherwise. Seniority being but one factor.

We won't agree. In fine with that.
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Old 04-16-2016, 11:28 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Papoo View Post
That is, until you realise that the unions allowed it to happen.
More utter BS

Originally Posted by Papoo View Post
We won't agree. In fine with that.
Actually, I am confident that we will when life inevitably deals you a big dose of reality.

Originally Posted by Winston View Post
Classic example of a guy who was born on third base, but thinks he hit a triple...
Exactly.
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