Military guys taking advantage?
 

From working at a major now for about a year, i have heard of many military guys getting hired, going through training, and then bailing for military leave until their seniority goes up. I am unfamiliar with how the system works. Is this a case of the military actually needing them back? Or are they taking advantage of the situation? I fully support our guys defending us however i know a lot of guys at the regionals that would kill to be at a major and it would be a shame if this were the case. Any enlightenment?

BL: Yes, there are some people who take advantage of the system, but I will also caveat it that they are in the slim minority. I’ve been at my airline for almost 2 years now after I retired from active duty. After 21 years of working with ANG and AFRES folks I can tell you most are very dedicated patriots, good pilots who are working a difficult balancing act between their units and the airline. I’ve flown with folks from 11 different carriers throughout my career and was not envious of that balancing act between wearing the uniform and serving while also their obligations to the airline, with the addition of trying to be proficient in two separate airframes, which have completely different missions. I know personally it would have drained me quite a bit. So I do have a lot of respect for the guys who have and still do it. But again, MOST do not game the system, but unfortunately there are those that do and they are in a clear minority.

Just like someone could get hired, have a baby, and then take FMLA leave up to the legal or contractual limit.

Airlines know the rules and they make the hiring decisions knowing the rules may be tweaked by some

Nonetheless, I don't think it makes them less deserving than a regional pilot "dying" for the job.

Good to hear it's just a minority situation. Thanks for clarifying for me. Like I said I don't really know the ins and outs so it's helpful to understand a bit.

I was not advocating the airlines not hire military guys at all. I'm sorry if that's how it came across. I was just saying that if guys were getting hired and then going back to complete their 20 years and intentionally turning its back on the airline to bypass the junior years then yes I believe in that circumstance a regional pilot would have been a better selection. However it seems this is not the case for the majority. Also, I don't believe having a baby and intentionally taking advantage of the system are the same thing. Just my opinion though.

Lots of guys went on AD, and stayed on AD, during the recent war years. Or they were furloughed and went on AD and finished their twenty years.

How do you define what is or isn't ok? If they're dodging billets it's okay? Dropping bombs on bad guys is okay? But a staff billet isn't?

The law allows it. The companies hire knowing the law. It's a plus in some circumstances, less so in others circumstances. I know guys activated right now. My guess is they'd prefer to be home with their young kids for Christmas vs sleeping in a tent overseas.

Didn't Delta have a problem with this over the last spring/summer?

Another perspective is any pilot who takes extended leave for any reason whether (s)he is junior or senior is just creating another open slot that you are able to compete for. The ability to immediately go back on MIL leave after being hired at a major is just a privilege one earns from being in the service.

these kind of questions to me seem to imply that the pilot has some sort of obligation out side of the law to an employer.

The employer or airline has most likely declared bankruptcy to abdicate their labor contracts, purposely underfunded pensions which took them away from current and retired pilots, not to mention the reduction in QOL while fighting improvements in fatigue safety .

I get it its business, and its just business for the pilots also.

Not sure what airline the OP was referring to, but at Delta you must have a minimum of 12 months on property before you can use FMLA.

Bingo. So junior X number of guys should thank their lucky stars the airline hired guys who are out on mil leave.

Pretty sure you just have to be released to the line after OE in order to use FMLA.

Fundamentally, if the DoD is willing to pay a reservist to be recalled then the military duty is legit by definition.

The military loves volunteers, because it means one less involuntary recall, and those have political consequences (they are tracked in detail by the OSD).

One one hand I generally encourage folks to complete one year before taking a recall, just to avoid the appearance of gaming the system but either way it's legit.

Also involuntary recalls do happen, so in some cases it was not the pilot's plan at all.

Hey thanks! a lot of you had responses that give me some perspective on what the mil leave entails. Only reason i even brought it up was because a guy I was talking to was actually bragging about scamming the system but sounds like that is just a fluke from what you guys are saying. Thanks again for your service.

Here's what I know without a shadow of doubt: I know there isn't a single vet who signed up just so they could "game the system" years later.

And even if there were such a person, as bad as our nation...and our gov't....has collectively screwed them over and outright F'd our men and ladies in uniform, I am 100% happy to let them game whatever they can for their personal benefit, even if it costs me and mine. Anyone wants to throw them under the bus for gaming the system....after all they and theirs have been through and sacrificed for the rest of us...be my guest. Me? I gladly stand aside and will gratefully buy them a round while I'm at it. God bless each and every one of them!

When we, their countrymen, hold our gov't and it's individual members fully accountable for the promises of support and fidelity we 100% owe our vets, and they actually get those benefits IN FULL, then I might...might...have a different opinion.

But not one nano-second before that. I gladly let them cut the line in front of me, and if you're standing behind me and don't like it, come get in my face before you dare get in theirs. I will beat you down like a red-headed idiot, or die trying.

post of the year

Pretty sure it's 12 months. Read PWA 13 H. 1., states clearly to be eligible for FMLA a pilot must have at least a minimum of 12 months of service.

What a joke. At my airline, especially back in the day of the "B" scale, the military guys would get hired and the go active and ride out their probationary year and the low-paying B scale until they reached "A" scale pay-rates. Then they would miraculously return from Active duty with A-Scale wages and OFF PROBATION. Well, B-Scale has come and gone at my airline and so have the rules changed - Mil guys can go on Active Duty during their probationary period BUT when they return The still have to put in a total of 1 year Probation. I'm ex-military myself but I'm no apologist for this "un-gentlemanly" behavior.

Gee, you sound like a swell guy. Can you work over-time and pay me your wages. I mean heck, I'm ex-military, when I came home from Vietnam, probably before you were born, I got nothing but scorn from the public. Maybe you can come over to my house and cut my lawn and pull weeds in my garden.

I know at United they ask for a copy of your DD-214 to show proof you left the military... not sure what they do with the form or how much they review it. However, If you were a guard bum or reservist this option/loophole might work (get off AD orders and then immediately get back on AD orders once hired)... but its a very small number of pilots who would be eligible.

The ultimate winners were the guys that got hired and then went to UPT. Nice gig, in UPT and already have your seniority number.

Federal FMLA laws do not grant eligibility until the employee has accumulated about one year's worth of work hours in the previous 12 months. So granting new-hires FMLA would be generous on the part of any employer, ie they don't have to do it.

Worth noting that the work hours rule initially did not translate well for crew, because we "only" work about 85 hours/month. The law was actually modified to count duty vice block/credit for crews.

There was still a problem with home reserve not being counted as duty, FA's were really bent out of shape that they couldn't get baby leave if they sat a lot of reserve. Not sure if they fixed that.

Showing your DD214 only proves that you're not still on that AD tour. They may be concerned that folks on terminal leave might get recalled out of class? Seems far fetched.

But any military vet can immediately turn around and join the guard/reserves. Some components will even take retirees. So a DD214 in no way guarantees that you can't go right back on some sort of guard/reserve orders. A retired O6 would be less likely to do that than a separated O4.

Where do you live? I'll gladly come over to cut your lawn and pull weeds in your garden. How about next Veteran's Day?

Who cares if anyone takes advantage?

As long as it means more new hires-I'm 100% in favor!!

Two problems...

Too many folks blatantly gaming the system tends to poison the well for other vets, particularly "reserve age" vets. For that reason alone I tend to encourage military folks to have some consideration for those that follow.

Other issue is that while corporate America's accommodation of reservists is basically part of their civic obligation, airlines do carry more than their fair share of that burden relative to other business sectors. OTOH, they do benefit from a steady stream of trained and experienced pilots at some one else's expense. But they tend to forget that last part, and fixate on the emotional butt hurt of their scheduling challenges...I try to encourage folks not to fan that flame, ie keep a low profile so as not incentivize the lobbying of congress for legislative "relief" from USERRA.

Basically have consideration for those who follow you, and your own long-term best interests as a reservist.

You are correct, read the federal guidelines. Probationary pilots should go to PAN if they have an issue.

This wouldn't happen as much if first year pay didn't suck.

Personally, I'd rather commute to reserve than do a deployment. Fly a redeye transcon than sit thru more SAPR training. There are a lot of benefits to being in the military but there's a lot of crap to wade through too.

Your heart,SayAlt, is in the right place. Thanks for your respect. I already have a gardner but thanks anyway

This is what happened to me..

Between being called for an interview at Southwest, and the actual interview, I was involuntarily recalled to active duty.

I don't want to do this stupid mobilization to fill a billet, which is caused by the combined leadership failures of the Army AND Navy.. Army for not being able to man a O-4 with a TS billet fifteen years into the war, and the Navy for being generally spineless when our reservists are being ridden pretty hard, harder than a lot of active duty honestly.

But yet, I must go spend a year is the land of Sand. A year away from home.. A year without advancing my career, only to have lost any and all currency..

How much me having to go on an involuntary recall had to do with Southwest saying "no" after an interview I thought went well? Who knows.

But I was asked about my reserve status and how I intended to have it not interfere with Southwest's training and schedules.. Which may be due to one too many guys doing the get hired, and scam 5 years of "involuntary" orders to get an active retirement and seniority without being there. (I know of two guys doing just that, one at SWA and one at Delta, so yeah, it happens and isn't uncommon)

Water under the bridge at this point but not sure that's a "legal" question for an interviewer to ask.

My company actually released a FCIF asking military pilots who could leave to do so to help mitigate a furlough? Do you feel that companies were scamming the system too? :D

What about when companies furloughed pilots and they went on orders to pay the bills? Do they "owe" the company a return at first notice? :rolleyes:

Companies have also benefited from their employee's military service and by being part of the CRAF. They just don't like not having control. :eek:

Krudawg, sorry for how you were treated upon your return! Thank you for your service!

Why admire the grass next door when that neighbor is off protecting your right to have an opinion? Just say "Thank You!!" and do your job.

I've always been in favor of military hires, it makes for a bigger seniority list, opportunities, etc. There must be some ratio, say 1.3 military hires needed for every new hire training slot. Crew planning needs warm bodies to feed the crew sked beast (reserve), and military new hires will often miss reserve days for guard duty, etc. Result is more interviews and bigger list. Just glad they keep hiring military!

The whole gist of this thread reads as bs to me. Sounds like the creator is a little jealous. Yawn...hope this dies soon

Shack. Bringing out my inner Jack Nicholson:

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you", and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to."

Oh stop it. You sound like John Wayne