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LCC's What's a guy to do?

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LCC's What's a guy to do?

Old 02-22-2007, 09:25 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Velocipede View Post
You stay with your Union regional until you can make the jump to a Union carrier. Your survival isn't in question. By going to a B6, VX or Skybus POS airline, you're looking for a quick upgrade and some narrow body flight time.

Go to a cargo operator. Go overseas. Get a second job to make ends meet. When I started at my airline we had a 5 year B scale. I flew for the Reserves to pay my bills. I averaged a day and a half off a month.

But, I didn't go to a non-Union scumbag airline that was undercutting Union contract. That's because I knew to do so was to stab the profession in the back.

If you do that, you'd better pray there isn't someone like me sitting on your interview board. Because you'll get shown the door lickety split.
I think there is enough room for everyone in the industry. Pilots have to fly somewhere, many of them have no other career qualifications.
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Old 02-22-2007, 11:05 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by frozenboxhauler View Post
SkyHigh, I wish you nothing but the best, but these are nothing but excuses. I don't own any "toys" or "beach-houses" and I had no one in the game (ie, father, uncle or squadron leader). I was so far "out" from the "in-crowd" that it wasn't even funny. The difference is that I refused to take "no" for an answer. I applied everywhere and I've got a stack of rejection and "**** off" letters about two inches high. I plan on wall papering my office with them the next time it's ready for a change. This has nothing to do with "old school" or even "new school" for that matter, it's just about drive and a little bit of good luck. Like I wrote before, I wish you nothing but success,
Best Regards,
fbh
I understand what you are saying. Every fall I would set a goal of sending out over 200 letters and applications by thanksgiving. I went to every job fair on the west coast, joined the noteworthy pilot employment clubs. Taken cross country employment trolling trips visiting a dozen or two companies in person. I have ventured into cold calling. I fully understand what you are saying and have exhausted every avenue.

The truth is that, though there is opportunity, those without significant contacts are frozen out of most of the better jobs. Many companies now even require several LOR's from company line pilots to be included in your application package. What is more obvious than that? I have never even met a for real SWA pilot let alone have any to request a LOR from. A simple letter writing campaign is antiquated and ineffective. Pilots today are hired through a well established "network". If you are aligned with the right people you have a better than fair chance of getting in. The application is just a formality and provides data for HR to begin an employee file on the new hire.
Occasionally HR gets bored and will pluck a random application from the pile and give a farm kid a thrill but the rest are all internally campaigned for and politically motivated hires.

Pilot families live and mingle with other pilot families. They tend to buy homes in the same neighborhoods join the same timeshares ect. It is easy for the offspring to make great connections and to be shown the secret way in. I have had to work my way up from the bottom. Almost every job I had I was the first in and threw a line to those to follow. My peers and I have reached the end of the ladder and there is no one above to send down a hand. I don't have any faith that simply waiting patiently will help out. The upper levels of the seniority list at the regionals are filled with 50 year old guys who have been waiting while 20 somethings who came from the right circle of friends continually get class dates.

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Old 02-22-2007, 12:09 PM
  #33  
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well spoken skyhigh. i agree with everything that you said. I am a case in point. I owe my current position to someone "high on the ladder". on a side note: are you thinking of getting back in the business? I think that would be a good idea. I'm no psychologist, but I often sense that you miss flying. If you do decide to come back, welcome and glad to have you.
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Old 02-22-2007, 12:15 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Linebacker35 View Post
Ya I know im a terrible speller, most be all those years of football and boxing
We can tell from your "thought process" you've had your bell rung a number of times.
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Old 02-22-2007, 03:19 PM
  #35  
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Sky, you have a lot of heart and I know you post on here out of a sense of responsibility, but don't waste time villifying a few who made it and therefore have to decide the fate of lesser pilots. In their hearts they wish to be fair. Favoritism is like the wind: it can blow in any direction, and as long as there are people having to decide things there will be fair and unfair decisions. Just strive to be true to yourself and when things get sour as they perhaps did for you let it go and strive for clarity and inner quality. I would argue that is the real thing to be had, it transcends flying, and it is all you take with you. I have to work in an office all day which I hate. I long for the sky, and when it comes time I'll try for a regional class. But if I can tolerate the office for what seems like an eternity while I build time and contacts, then you can forgive a few chief pilots for being human.

Last edited by Cubdriver; 02-23-2007 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 02-22-2007, 04:20 PM
  #36  
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sky high, I never new anyone in aviation but now I have contacts everywere, from 135 to Ups and all the reginals , legacies and LCCs in between. you can make contacts and get to know people.

the school were you got your cfi and flight instructed or the company you started ding traffic watch for should have had some guys leaving to fly for a 135 cargo outfit, any of whom could write you a LOR. then some of the 135 guys you flew with and went to the regionals could have written you LORs. then at the regional level you flew with guys that went and have had jumpseaters that worked for the then called nationals (Polar,airtran,fronter,gemini,kaitta2......etc...) , and those guys could write you LORs , finally while you are working and the nationals ( spirit, frontier, polar, gemini....) there were guys there who went to UPS, united, alaska,AA..... AGAIN they could have written LORs for you

are you telling us you never made any contacts? that is a personality problem dude. you don't need to know the CP or the vp of ops or vp of hr. any 2 or 3 line pilot rec with the right experience would get you and interview.
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Old 02-22-2007, 06:10 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by greedyairlineexec View Post
Are you telling us you never made any contacts? that is a personality problem dude. you don't need to know the CP or the vp of ops or vp of hr. any 2 or 3 line pilot rec with the right experience would get you and interview.
I was just getting ready to post something along these lines. I never knew anyone in aviation until I took my first flight lesson. I was mid 20's, in college, and just planned on getting my private. It didn't take me long to decide I wanted to fly for a living. I worked my way up through the ranks just like everyone else, but made a bunch of friends doing it. It was the friends I made that helped me get my first part 135 job, and ultimately the great job I have now at a major cargo airline. Networking is key, and making friends in aviation even more so. SkyHigh, you posted "My peers and I have reached the end of the ladder and there is no one above to send down a hand." I find it hard to believe that you haven't befriended or know anyone in the industry that can give you a hand or a solid recommendation. If so, and I apologize if this sounds harsh, but maybe you need to take a look at yourself, your personality, your attitude, maybe even your weight or appearance. I can tell from your posts that you miss aviation, and seem a little bitter about not being where you think you should be at this point. It's not a fair industry, that's for sure, and there are a lot of great guys out on the street or plugging away at the regionals that are probably better qualified to do my job than I am. I just want you to know that you don't have to be ex-military, have an Aunt in charge of hiring at Alaska Airline, or whatever. Like greedyairlineexec said, a couple good recommendations and the right experience can get you where you want to be. Good luck with whatever you decide to do...
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Old 02-22-2007, 08:18 PM
  #38  
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SkyHigh,

I once met a pilot whom flew for National, while on a trip to Vegas... As I talked to him, he even offered to help me get my stuff in with National to get some "heavy jet time" in so I could go to Alaska.... This is networking... I'll bet a nickel you are the gentleman I talked to (maybe I'm wrong). He, (or possibly you?) was willing to help a fellow colleague. AS was the ONLY airline I ever wanted to work for. Well, AS shot me down in 2003, and I was let down. After that, I didn't want to ever go through another application process again, or try another carrier. I re-applied at AS and never heard a word, so I gave up. I've never sent out any apps since, and have had my eyes shut to opportunity.

Fast forward to 2007... I had a UPS jumpseater on one of my flights. I told him I'm very interested in UPS, but I have no contacts.. None... He said he'd be happy to help me out. I haven't talked with him too much yet, but it's a start... He told me to be persistent and get someone, or himself to drop my name with HR. I thought I'd never get a chance at the elite carriers either, and then this guy came alone. I couldn't believe it. Another pilot I work with just got on with FedEx by coincidentally meeting another FedEx pilot to be their sponsor. If this is what it takes, I'll be talking to every jumpseater I meet from now on!

The point I'm trying to make is that I thought I could never network or find anybody on the "inside". I found out that all I had to do is ask... Be persistent, network, and good luck!
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Old 02-22-2007, 11:00 PM
  #39  
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Let take the word union out of the equation for a second. O'le green one you get yourself in a bind with this sometime.

Taking union away, lets just talk about fair pay for a fair job. We are all so eager to jump on the top of a seniority list that we loose sight of the fact that a job at 7/11 will soon be more financially rewarding considering you get to go home everynight.

It really has nothing to do with being union but everything to do with allowing management to line their pockets while the breadwinners, CA's/FO's/FA's/Mechanics Rampers and Gate Agents squeeze by on pennies.

If we promote the hiring at the these companies, if we sign our selves out we are selling each and every professional pilot short and it will come back to bite us all.

Bottom line you have to do what you feel is right for you and your family.

If you feel that what you are sacrificing so management can drive Luxury cars and sleep in Million dollar mansions, is good for you. And, if you're pretty sure your wife, who now has to work two jobs to put the kids through school, won't resent you and leave you with nothing someday.

If you feel its worth it than we'll see you in the cockpit of an ULCC [Ultra Low Cost Carrier], that is what Skybus calls themselves. Its going to be more like ULPA [Ultra Low Paying Airbus].

Enjoy your senority because I fear its all you'll ever get out of it.

Fair Skys My Friends
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Old 02-23-2007, 04:47 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by greedyairlineexec View Post
sky high, I never new anyone in aviation but now I have contacts everywere, from 135 to Ups and all the reginals , legacies and LCCs in between. you can make contacts and get to know people.

the school were you got your cfi and flight instructed or the company you started ding traffic watch for should have had some guys leaving to fly for a 135 cargo outfit, any of whom could write you a LOR. then some of the 135 guys you flew with and went to the regionals could have written you LORs. then at the regional level you flew with guys that went and have had jumpseaters that worked for the then called nationals (Polar,airtran,fronter,gemini,kaitta2......etc...) , and those guys could write you LORs , finally while you are working and the nationals ( spirit, frontier, polar, gemini....) there were guys there who went to UPS, united, alaska,AA..... AGAIN they could have written LORs for you

are you telling us you never made any contacts? that is a personality problem dude. you don't need to know the CP or the vp of ops or vp of hr. any 2 or 3 line pilot rec with the right experience would get you and interview.

Sure I have a few friends who work for other companies like Frontier and Gemini. If I put my best efforts into it I bet I could get another flying job, but I don't want just another flying job. Not just another dead end FO gig that will take me kicking and screaming into my 50's before I upgrade. Before I am able to reinvest myself into an aviation career there needs to be some promises of decent pay and a reasonable QOL on the horizon.

My peer group hasn't done so well. Most of the contacts I know call me to ask how they can quit flying and build houses too. There is another layer of pilots who live and work on a higher tier of aviation. Over dinner they discuss dealings at UAL, SWA and the like. They have real flying jobs and earn a real living. I have never been able to break into into that world and neither have any of my friends.

I can not afford to ruin the peace and joy of my families lives on another "B" grade airline. I just don't believe that the average Joe has much of a chance.

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