Pre 9/11 payscales
03-02-2007, 09:28 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: SAABster
Posts: 639
Originally Posted by tomgoodman
Medicine is the most noble career to which any mere groundling can aspire, and therefore merits high compensation. A pilot, to paraphrase Mark Twain, "cares for nothing but the sky, and his pride in his profession exceeds that of kings." He is not "paid", but offered monetary tribute by the pitifully earthbound, that he may grant them the miracle of his magic. 
AWESOME!! This is going on the back of my biz cards!!! Love it!!
03-02-2007, 09:38 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
I think the real issue is that it takes 8 years of increasingly competitive and expensive college to be followed by more years if internship and specialization to become a doctor. Some become GP's and take care of sniffles and sneezes others move into high dollar plastic surgery. What ever the specialty it takes someone with extreme dedication, intelligence and the willingness to stick fingers places most would never wish to go.
A pilot by comparison can become licensed to fly an airliner in 6 months and doesn't really require any college. A pilot career is doomed to be worth far less and is really not even close to a doctors job. It would be like comparing a garbageman with an accountant.
I have a paramedic friend who considered becoming a professional pilot. He choose to take a 2 year course to become a Physician's Assistant instead. He started his first job last fall and as a new hire started out making 85K. In a few yeas he will top out at 120K. Medicine is a growth industry and skilled workers are in high demand.
SkyHigh
A pilot by comparison can become licensed to fly an airliner in 6 months and doesn't really require any college. A pilot career is doomed to be worth far less and is really not even close to a doctors job. It would be like comparing a garbageman with an accountant.
I have a paramedic friend who considered becoming a professional pilot. He choose to take a 2 year course to become a Physician's Assistant instead. He started his first job last fall and as a new hire started out making 85K. In a few yeas he will top out at 120K. Medicine is a growth industry and skilled workers are in high demand.
SkyHigh
-LAFF
03-02-2007, 02:22 PM
#73
Indian Takeout Driver
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FAR part 347 (91+121+135)
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by JollyF15
I'll say it again since you have not been reading my damn posts. I think the entire airline industry deserve to get paid more, some more than others. Those pilots at very profitible companies desrve more since they are in large part responsible for all those dollars.
Jolly
Jolly
Short Answer: They're ALPA - I would have never applied to them before they were union, with no chance of improvement. I see possible upside and potential with them now however.
Long Answer:
Their current contract, while poor in some respects (pay... $64/hr 2nd year FO, etc..) was negotiated under BK. There are significant upsides, like Home basing and a liberal overtime policies and time and a half pay (we have $180K/yr CPs that are still getting 12-14 days off a month)
Nevertheless, at the time of our contract, the company was losing money hand over fist, unlike Fedex and UPS. In time, if/when they're profitable, I expect we'll try to bridge the gap between them and Fedex, but this will not happen without a union on the property. That said, we've lost 30+ pilots in the past few months to UPS/Fedex and some others... simply because of the pay issue. Time will tell if GAC ever raises the pay to where it's more reasonable, but clearly the free market is speaking about the value of an MD-11 pilot by the mass migration out of our company.
I'm a new hire, having taken a good bit of time off from flying, I didn't many choices of where to go. I'm thankful for my union contract Job and while I'm at GAC, I'll do my best to make it a great company, and a profitable company that can then pay me what I deserve for the work I do flying all over the world, into 3rd world nations at Airports with minimal facilities on 6 continents.
03-02-2007, 06:29 PM
#74
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Yes
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
SKY HIGH
You love to fire off BS examples.................
In the 1960's there were a few (very few ) flight cadets that were hired with little time. You forget that back then (actually you were in diapers) If you were lucky enough to get hired at UAL, PAN-AM or TWA you sat as an Engineer (non Pilot) for 5-10 years and that is assuming you passed the training and checkrides. Then if you were lucky enough to upgrade you flew as a FO for another 10 years with a very seasoned CAPT. You got lots of on the Job traing under Adult supervision. Deregualtion changed that and since 1978 you haven't seen the Major Airlines hiring 300 hour wonders......( well UAL hired a few because of EEOC lawsuits but it bit them) But as a whole, to be competitive at a Major you need 3,000 hours or more of Quality Flight time (Jet time not c-180's) as well as CAPT time. While, I'll admit, you really don't need a "College" degree to fly, there is a reason for it. It shows you have the smarts, the initiative and maturity to someday be a CAPT. Most the Airlines don't hire you as an FO, they hire you as a future CAPT.
Your right, you haved never served or flown in the Military.
Saying the Military on invests only a few hundred hours to an aircraft commander only highlights your Naivity and you do that often BTW. Miltary flight school is approximately a 2 year syllabus. That is the basic syllabus to simply to get one's wings with approx 200-300 actual flight hours and probably just as much time in a simulator ( which is a lot more time than the 40 hours required to be a private pilot). Once a fledgling Military Pilot gets his wings , he/she spends between 8-16 more months and a few hundred more hours in specific Aircraft school and a lot more simulator time.....be it in Transports, Bombers or Fighters. It is very competitive just to get in let alone finish. Once the Pilot hits the Fleet or Active squadron, he/she will be under supervsion for the first year. There are different syllabuses for each airplane. No one gets put right into an Aircraft Commander seat, or in the Fighters, no one put into a flight leader position. You have to earn those positions. The completion rate is extremely low. Can't speak first hand for the Airforce flight school but the Navy's wash out rate is in excess of 55% (from those who apply to hose that simply quit or Fail to hack it or die while in training. I suppose you think it is easy to land on an Aircraft Carrier........let me guess you have a "friend " that told you so.....
I am not comparing myself to a Doctor, never have.........................
I merely pointed out the fact that Professional Pilots are highly educated and trained.
You made the comparison between a Professional Pilot and a Garbageman.
BTW I am worth more than a Gemini Pilot simply because my Union was able to negotiate a higher rate..............They should make more but don't, but someday they will. It doesn't change the fact that Pilots are highly skilled technitions weather they are fairly compensated for it or not.
You love to fire off BS examples.................
In the 1960's there were a few (very few ) flight cadets that were hired with little time. You forget that back then (actually you were in diapers) If you were lucky enough to get hired at UAL, PAN-AM or TWA you sat as an Engineer (non Pilot) for 5-10 years and that is assuming you passed the training and checkrides. Then if you were lucky enough to upgrade you flew as a FO for another 10 years with a very seasoned CAPT. You got lots of on the Job traing under Adult supervision. Deregualtion changed that and since 1978 you haven't seen the Major Airlines hiring 300 hour wonders......( well UAL hired a few because of EEOC lawsuits but it bit them) But as a whole, to be competitive at a Major you need 3,000 hours or more of Quality Flight time (Jet time not c-180's) as well as CAPT time. While, I'll admit, you really don't need a "College" degree to fly, there is a reason for it. It shows you have the smarts, the initiative and maturity to someday be a CAPT. Most the Airlines don't hire you as an FO, they hire you as a future CAPT.
Your right, you haved never served or flown in the Military.
Saying the Military on invests only a few hundred hours to an aircraft commander only highlights your Naivity and you do that often BTW. Miltary flight school is approximately a 2 year syllabus. That is the basic syllabus to simply to get one's wings with approx 200-300 actual flight hours and probably just as much time in a simulator ( which is a lot more time than the 40 hours required to be a private pilot). Once a fledgling Military Pilot gets his wings , he/she spends between 8-16 more months and a few hundred more hours in specific Aircraft school and a lot more simulator time.....be it in Transports, Bombers or Fighters. It is very competitive just to get in let alone finish. Once the Pilot hits the Fleet or Active squadron, he/she will be under supervsion for the first year. There are different syllabuses for each airplane. No one gets put right into an Aircraft Commander seat, or in the Fighters, no one put into a flight leader position. You have to earn those positions. The completion rate is extremely low. Can't speak first hand for the Airforce flight school but the Navy's wash out rate is in excess of 55% (from those who apply to hose that simply quit or Fail to hack it or die while in training. I suppose you think it is easy to land on an Aircraft Carrier........let me guess you have a "friend " that told you so.....
I am not comparing myself to a Doctor, never have.........................
I merely pointed out the fact that Professional Pilots are highly educated and trained.
You made the comparison between a Professional Pilot and a Garbageman.
BTW I am worth more than a Gemini Pilot simply because my Union was able to negotiate a higher rate..............They should make more but don't, but someday they will. It doesn't change the fact that Pilots are highly skilled technitions weather they are fairly compensated for it or not.
The point I was making was that the job of airline pilot does not require a high level of experience anymore. It is legal and possible to serve as a first officer in a regional jet with less than 6 months total experience as a pilot. The examples I offered are proof of that. Currently there are 20 somethings piloting RJ's about the country with less than 500 hours. A FedEx pilot doesn't even haul any people. If you go into the drink Amazon will have to resend a plane load of packages. The regionals are entrusting living passengers to people who didn't even have drivers licenses five years ago.
As previously mentioned it takes longer to become certified to replace a toilet.
The only thing keeping pilot wages from plummeting into garbageman levels is the union. The job skills are not rare or difficult to come by. Anyone with three months and a co-signer stupid enough can become a professional grade pilot.
SkyHigh
03-02-2007, 06:38 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
The point I was making was that the job of airline pilot does not require a high level of experience anymore. It is legal and possible to serve as a first officer in a regional jet with less than 6 months total experience as a pilot. The examples I offered are proof of that. Currently there are 20 somethings piloting RJ's about the country with less than 500 hours. A FedEx pilot doesn't even haul any people. If you go into the drink Amazon will have to resend a plane load of packages. The regionals are entrusting living passengers to people who didn't even have drivers licenses five years ago.
As previously mentioned it takes longer to become certified to replace a toilet.
The only thing keeping pilot wages from plummeting into garbageman levels is the union. The job skills are not rare or difficult to come by. Anyone with three months and a co-signer stupid enough can become a professional grade pilot.
SkyHigh
As previously mentioned it takes longer to become certified to replace a toilet.
The only thing keeping pilot wages from plummeting into garbageman levels is the union. The job skills are not rare or difficult to come by. Anyone with three months and a co-signer stupid enough can become a professional grade pilot.
SkyHigh
03-02-2007, 10:46 PM
#76
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: F-5,737
Posts: 61
Its about Experience
I believe skyhigh has a point, but he is missing a major point. True it's not hard to sit in a cockpit, take off, select autopilot, manage the jet to the destination then turn off the autopilot and land, but whom do you want in the cockpit when everything doesn't go right? I would want a pilot with some experience to fall back on so they can reach into that bag of tricks called experience and keep the bad situation from getting worse. Its not that you want or need the best stick (I know a few that are dead now), but you do need the best overall pilot; one with the situational awareness and experience to recognize a deteriorating situation and that have the skills/experience to prevent it from deteriorating further.
03-02-2007, 11:30 PM
#77
Indian Takeout Driver
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FAR part 347 (91+121+135)
Posts: 1,566
I'll say this to anyone who thinks we're not educated. I finished 4 years of college, and am most of the way thru an MBA. I've spent anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 weeks getting one of my 5 type ratings, and I've kept in the books with all of the changes that have evolved in our airspace system. This is a professional job, kid yourself not.. but the fact is, the responsibility we have is almost as much if not arguably more than an Doctor.. When busses crash, 9 out of 10 times, there are little or no fatalities.. When a jet filled with bodies crashes it's the other way around.
I recently had an Emergency Descent due to smoke with 6 pax on a Citation X.. I can tell you that was the most frightening moment of my life, and I served as a ground troop in the first Gulf War, but not only did my life hang on my every decision, so did the lives of those other 7 on the aircraft, and any one on the ground.. The next 10 minutes were not executed "by the book" ala Swiss Air's MD-11.. but I did get us on the ground and we did get out of the very smoke filled airplane safe and power it down to stop the electrical fire.
That day, I think I earned the $15M cost of the airplane, and I effectively saved those people lives... it could easily have gone the other way were I not prepared and kept my cool enough.
So don't tell me about being over paid.
I recently had an Emergency Descent due to smoke with 6 pax on a Citation X.. I can tell you that was the most frightening moment of my life, and I served as a ground troop in the first Gulf War, but not only did my life hang on my every decision, so did the lives of those other 7 on the aircraft, and any one on the ground.. The next 10 minutes were not executed "by the book" ala Swiss Air's MD-11.. but I did get us on the ground and we did get out of the very smoke filled airplane safe and power it down to stop the electrical fire.
That day, I think I earned the $15M cost of the airplane, and I effectively saved those people lives... it could easily have gone the other way were I not prepared and kept my cool enough.
So don't tell me about being over paid.
03-02-2007, 11:58 PM
#78
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,906
The reason there are low time pilots in the cockpit can be summed up in two words... "CHEAP LABOR"!
As crazy as it is, carriers are being sold by the manufacturers, the idea that aircraft of today are more reliable than those of yeaster-year.
But then again that’s what happens when the lunatics run the asylum.
As crazy as it is, carriers are being sold by the manufacturers, the idea that aircraft of today are more reliable than those of yeaster-year.
But then again that’s what happens when the lunatics run the asylum.
03-03-2007, 02:41 AM
#79
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Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: Retired 121 pilot
Posts: 1,032
Originally Posted by captjns
The reason there are low time pilots in the cockpit can be summed up in two words... "CHEAP LABOR"!
03-03-2007, 03:23 AM
#80
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,906
Originally Posted by fireman0174
I suggest that it's really the law of supply and demand. IMO cheap labor is but a symptom.
Even as late, pilots from COMAIR have elected to take a cut in pay to retain their jobs.
Last edited by captjns; 03-03-2007 at 04:05 AM.
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