Delta tired of unprofessional females
#141
Swimmin' in da pool
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 444
Look around you, dawgdriver. There are very few female/minority pilots. Do you assume that they are all unqualified? I'd bet that if you talked to them, you'd find many of them are just as qualified or more so than you. You might find some less qualified, though no doubt you would find a number of white males less qualified. There is no shortage of extremely qualified pilots out there, and no airline is waiving the minimums just to get an extra female/minority pilot, are there?
How many men do you think got the inside track because they knew people at the company? Their squadron mates recommended them, their family member worked there. Is that an illegal and unethical practice? Nowadays if you have one silly block checked (like volunteer work done, what organization you belong to), that now makes you "more qualified".
Resenting women and minorities because they might have a tiny in that you don't is a waste of time. Assuming that they must be unqualified and got the job because of their sex/skin doesn't do anyone any favors. They are as skilled and talented as any of their white male counterparts. However, skills and talent do not equal experience in these groups are being hired with far less experience than their white male counterparts.
Look at the newhire classes coming in, and they are almost all white and male. You're wasting your time being resentful.
How many men do you think got the inside track because they knew people at the company? Their squadron mates recommended them, their family member worked there. Is that an illegal and unethical practice? Nowadays if you have one silly block checked (like volunteer work done, what organization you belong to), that now makes you "more qualified".
Resenting women and minorities because they might have a tiny in that you don't is a waste of time. Assuming that they must be unqualified and got the job because of their sex/skin doesn't do anyone any favors. They are as skilled and talented as any of their white male counterparts. However, skills and talent do not equal experience in these groups are being hired with far less experience than their white male counterparts.
Look at the newhire classes coming in, and they are almost all white and male. You're wasting your time being resentful.
This is a simple and logical argument based on the principles of merit, equality and what is now the law. It does not require the injection of emotional pleas. Why insult minorities and women by implying or defending the need to lower the bar for them? From my experience training them, they need no favors. They are as skilled and talented as any of their male counterparts. What they often lack however, is vital experience. Every day we see Captain's at regionals or military pilots with impeccable credentials and thousands of hours of command experience, resumes out for years, with no phone calls, watching newly minted and unseasoned first officers getting hired at legacies within months of being on the property. This is not as much of a fairness issue as it is a safety issue, given the fact that Delta is now upgrading MD-80 captains in four months. When you consider how many regional first officers are now coming right out of CFI positions, it paints a disturbing picture.
Minorities and women deserve better. They deserve to be treated as equals and hired with The same experience and qualifications as their peer group. I fly with many of them every day, and they often resent being placed in a special class. They resent the stigma of undeserved position such unfair practices create. They are as capable as their white male counterparts and have proven so on countless occasions. They don't need preferential hiring Or treatment. Enough with the insults
Last edited by dawgdriver; 01-16-2017 at 10:44 AM.
#142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
dawgdriver, I reread your post, and I'm not quite sure why you are rehashing United's past hiring policy on a thread specifically about Delta's new ponytail policy. Seems every thread relating to anything about female pilots always devolves to a completely different issue. Are you complaining about all airlines hiring policies, or just United? Current policy or past? And is your evidence purely based upon more women/minorities getting hired than the application rate of those groups (and do you actually have knowledge of those statistics?). Purely anecdotal evidence, but I know some extremely qualified female pilots who have been turned down by United.
I am just curious. I think we can discuss these issues on this forum without anyone getting offended. I have not gone through this entire thread, so if you have already explained these things specifically, sorry about that.
I am just curious. I think we can discuss these issues on this forum without anyone getting offended. I have not gone through this entire thread, so if you have already explained these things specifically, sorry about that.
#143
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: CRJ7
Posts: 54
For those of you not familiar with the FUPA I leave you this.
FUPA Hunter
FUPA Hunter
Last edited by ALTBUS; 01-16-2017 at 10:52 AM.
#145
Swimmin' in da pool
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 444
dawgdriver, I reread your post, and I'm not quite sure why you are rehashing United's past hiring policy on a thread specifically about Delta's new ponytail policy. Seems every thread relating to anything about female pilots always devolves to a completely different issue. Are you complaining about all airlines hiring policies, or just United? Current policy or past? And is your evidence purely based upon more women/minorities getting hired than the application rate of those groups (and do you actually have knowledge of those statistics?). Purely anecdotal evidence, but I know some extremely qualified female pilots who have been turned down by United.
I am just curious. I think we can discuss these issues on this forum without anyone getting offended. I have not gone through this entire thread, so if you have already explained these things specifically, sorry about that.
I am just curious. I think we can discuss these issues on this forum without anyone getting offended. I have not gone through this entire thread, so if you have already explained these things specifically, sorry about that.
The argument is based on both current and past practices, both of which are flawed. In the past, white males were favored, now it is the opposite. I know other major airlines like NWA, also fearful of similar lawsuits filed, followed similar practices. In the past white males were favored, now it's the opposite. Both are wrong two wrongs don't make a right.
And to answer your other question, the reason why this thread devolved from a Delta women forced to wear a ponytail is because the OP decided to make a fairness issue out of her ponytail by comparing it to (and insulting) her male counterparts that she described as often being fat and disheveled.
And I've known both extremely qualified -- and unqualified females and minorities AND White males that were hired by United. There is no perfect system, but this discussion revolved around the OPs insinuation of sexual bias when clearly that's not the case.
I hope this helps
#146
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
FAR 117 didn't take into account the extra time for beauty requirements. Many will think tough sh.., but it doesn't change the fact that women will be waking up earlier, and thus less rested.
#148
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
Thanks for the clarification, dawgdriver. I'm not quite sure why the OP mentioning some of her co-workers as being fat and disheveled have anything to do with preferential hiring, but hey, these threads go off track all the time. I'll openly admit to sometimes being disheveled, but fortunately I'm at FedEx, so add that to the exhausted look on our faces at 3am and that can be the norm.
The thing about quotas, is that they can work against those intended to be helped. An extremely sharp female friend of mine in the Air Force never got a pilot slot...because the quotas were about 1.5%, and women had to compete at a national level instead of locally. She spent her career in maintenance instead. As far as United, I had heard if it was the end of the year and they'd hired all their minority quotas for the year, forget about getting hired. Don't know if that's true or not, though. But quotas, when the quotas are very low, may not do the selected group any favors.
The thing about quotas, is that they can work against those intended to be helped. An extremely sharp female friend of mine in the Air Force never got a pilot slot...because the quotas were about 1.5%, and women had to compete at a national level instead of locally. She spent her career in maintenance instead. As far as United, I had heard if it was the end of the year and they'd hired all their minority quotas for the year, forget about getting hired. Don't know if that's true or not, though. But quotas, when the quotas are very low, may not do the selected group any favors.
#149
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,940
Let me guess its "no big deal" because you are not a girl? Several have already said how petty and demeaning this new change is. As a guy it doesn't affect me BUT that doesn't mean i don't care about it. With a mother, a wife, and three daughters I tend to be more aware of these things than single males or guys without older daughters.
Am I loosing sleep? no. Just brought it up with 5 seconds of typing.
When you iron your shirt, shower and shave you don't think of this. But many women at that point are now told they have to put their hair up in a pony tail they are out of compliance and not professional. Is it too much to ask? TBD but it isn't necessary in my opinion. What goes through their mind at that point in the morning is this is BS. The CHANGE is uncalled for and more petty crap from an old man down in ATL towards women. As if the PROVE yourself BS they get daily in the cockpit isn't enough.
Also NEWS FLASH this isn't the military.
Am I loosing sleep? no. Just brought it up with 5 seconds of typing.
When you iron your shirt, shower and shave you don't think of this. But many women at that point are now told they have to put their hair up in a pony tail they are out of compliance and not professional. Is it too much to ask? TBD but it isn't necessary in my opinion. What goes through their mind at that point in the morning is this is BS. The CHANGE is uncalled for and more petty crap from an old man down in ATL towards women. As if the PROVE yourself BS they get daily in the cockpit isn't enough.
Also NEWS FLASH this isn't the military.
Now, making them wear a skirt, that's offensive. But that isn't what they did. I don't like wearing a suit jacket to work.... But the company requires it. Oh well.
And I'm supposed to be the liberal one here....
#150
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
I have a wife too. Certain times, she is required to wear her hair up for her job. This isn't about whatever trigger word you want to use. It isn't demeaning. If the company says, wearing your hair past your collar is not appropriate, or having hair that covers your ears for guys, it's not demeaning. If the company wants me to wear a long sleeve shirt when I have tattoos, it is their prerogative. Saying it offends me, is ridiculous. Saying it offends you because you have a wife is laughable.
Now, making them wear a skirt, that's offensive. But that isn't what they did. I don't like wearing a suit jacket to work.... But the company requires it. Oh well.
And I'm supposed to be the liberal one here....
Now, making them wear a skirt, that's offensive. But that isn't what they did. I don't like wearing a suit jacket to work.... But the company requires it. Oh well.
And I'm supposed to be the liberal one here....
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