Gunther Rall RIP
 

Just learned the passing of Gunther Rall - the third best fighter pilot of all time with 275 victories. A great warrior - a great man! RIP.

re: Gunther Rall RIP
 

Rall may or may not have been third-best. He is considered the third-highest scoring, WRT air-to-air victories.

Nonetheless, RIP.

What an era! So many great names. Most of those Luftwaffe guys loathed the Nazis and what they stood for. I raise a glass to these warriors; you will never see the likes of Johnson, Bong, Hartmann, Bader, Graf, McCampbell etc etc again!

Tailwinds
 

RIP. He was also former Luftwaffe Commander. Saw him speak with Chuck Yeager at Air University. They told stories of their WWII exploits. He came across as good old fashioned, down to earth fighter pilot. Fair skies and tailwinds.

Just curious, how'd Chuck come across? Don't think I've heard him reviewed with same words.

Not bad
 

I was talking about how Gunther Rall came across in that post, but since you asked...

That was the only time I personally was ever around Chuck Yeager. I've never really heard a "good review" about him either, so I know what you are getting at. However, on that stage in that company, he came off like "one of the boys telling war stories around the bar." It was back and forth with Gunther Rall recalling their experiences as WWII fighter pilots over Europe. He also talked of getting shot down and how the resistance helped him get back to friendly lines. As their discussion developed they came to the conclusion that Gunter was in the same aerial battle that Chuck was shot down in, but Gunther wasn't the one to shoot him down. It was very interesting to hear their stories from their perspective of being on opposite sides of the conflict. I thoroughly enjoyed that presentation and feel lucky to have been able to attend. Living legends telling war stories is hard to come by and tough to pass up.

I'll agree 100% though my experience was a little different. There was no sharing of war stories as I stood behind the line of former USN/USMC WWII aces from the Pacific theater and across from thier Japanese counterparts. Rough words were spoken even 50 years after the fact! :eek:
Some feelings/memories die hard no doubt.

USMCFLYR

Polar Opposites
 

USMC:

While the ferorcity of the aerial battles was the same in the Pacific and Europe, the similarities ended if you found yourself a POW.

While camp conditions were harsh, the Germans generally followed the Geneva Conventions for the "civilized" conduct of war. The chivalry displayed there allows former adversaries to become friends.

However, the Japanese hadn't yet embraced a Western-mindset. Forced labor, death marches, or just shooting POWs because jailing and feeding them were an inconvenience......commonplace, whether the prisoners were flyers or not.

The Germans only used that in the concentration camps.

Here's an excerpt from Ernest Hermmingway, based on his observations of fighter pilots in the Spanish civil war of the late 1930s:

From Colliers Magazine, Aug, 1944

You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman, and there isn't any horse, not any before, nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane. The men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others. A man has one virginity to lose in fighters, and if it is a lovely airplane he loses it to, there is where his heart will forever be.

Politics aside, fighter pilots are usually very similar, and the brotherhood can reach across borders, language, and even idiology.

It's amazing what these pilots have done. Can you imagine having 352 aerial victories (Erich Hartmann) under your belt at the age of 23 and this using guns only? I have listened to stories from Gunther Rall and read Erich Hartmann's book: The Blond Knight of Germany. I am not a military pilot but this one is a must read. His discipline and tactics are truly remarkable.

Read the book and one thing I found kind of disconcerning was the author's insistence that the German's standard of accounting for kills was the most accurate and thus his kill record must be accepted. Fine but in reality, the German's overclaimed just at much as the allies. Not to the extent as the Japanese (the Japanese seemingly claimed whatever they shot at) but overclaimed just the same. It was the nature of combat back in the day. Even with the advent of the gun camera, over claiming was big. For example, in 1945, a dozen or so Hellcats took on a dozen or so Ki-100's (we thought they were Ki-84 Franks) and the Navy pilots claimed 8 while the Japanese claimed 9 Hellcats. Actual score was 1 Ki-100 shot down, 1 Hellcat shot down and 1 Ki-100/1 Hellcat destroyed in a mid-air collision. Navy ace Cornelius Nooy had 15 kills at the time and claimed 4 in this battle to raise his score to 19. Obviously he didn't score 4, it was 1 at the most.

I read a good book on Pappy Boyington before I came to Korea. Some folks gave it a bad review because the author shed some light on the man, meaning made him out to be human. His score of first 28, then 26 (official) is not even that. Looking at the Japanese records and AVG, he scored probably 2 air to air with the AVG and though listed as 22 with the Blacksheep, it's more half that. Probably 11 or 12 kills plus 2 in the AVG gives him 13 or 14 (which in itself is highly respectable). Regardless of that, it doesn't take away that he was a natural leader, an outstanding pilot, a fierce warrior who led his men in battle during difficult times. It wasn't always take-off, fly through cavu sky and engage. The Corsair's of the time had all sorts of maint issues, the weather in the south pacific can be dog**** (I've been there done that), disease and sickness, constant boredom followed by intense combat, takes its toll. I had more respect for the man after I read that book than I ever did. Because he didn't have 22 or 26 or 28 kills and was a leading ace means nothing. It was the man that was a legend. Same with Rall, Barkhorn or Hartman. No doubt they don't have their "official" kills but they were leaders of men, during horrible times and came through as respected warriors. That's what counts in my book.

One of my favorite books of all time is Thunderbolt! by Robert S. Johnson - it is basically a diary of sorts/autobiography - what a book... and what a time to be thrown into air combat! I couldn't imagine having 20% of your primary class killed during training.... and then fighting for your life day after day - seeing your buds crash and burn - coming home with half an airplane - bailing out multiple times during your tour- no ejection seats, no G-suits, just a few .50 cals, 2300hp, and some guts.... wow!!

(not to take anything away from the fighter guys now at all - because they're ready to do whatever it takes as well)

To me, that's what counts. The stuff these guys went through, the sacrifices. I know on another website, at least one guy was so distraught over the fact anyone could challenge an "offical" kill score. My point wasn't to change the score, it is what it is, just to point out many folks didn't have their claims. They are still the ultimate warriors in my book.

John B Lundstrom did some of the most credible work when it comes to detailed analysis of early Naval air combat from Feb 42-Dec 42. His two books are masterpieces of knowledge IMO. Some of our aces are not aces but it takes nothing away from their experience. Even legends like Joe Foss (the ranking Marine Corp) ace doesn't have 26 kills from the looks of it but that man was a bad ass and legend. I got to meet him years ago when I was an Ensign stashed at Top Gun in San Diego. From Aug 42 to Dec 42, the Marines claimed something along the lines of 340 kills but actually shot down about 170 or so (numbers aren't exact as I don't have the book in front of me).

They may have only SHOT down 170 or so....but the others crapped themselves to death on the way back to base after tangling with the CORP............I mean CORPS! ;)
You really are itching for a whooping aren't you?

USMCFLYR

Damnit, I forget, the Corps!! Hey, all I know is met Joe Foss and he was the man!! Foss did scare the Japanese from a large scal aerial attack at one point during the war. Of course it wasn't a dig on the Marines obviously :), it was just the standard overclaiming by all sides in the war. The Navy claimed about 200 during the same time period but scored around 130 or so. And yes, I'm a history nerd when it comes to military aviation...a geek.

I'm actually reading a book now by Foss.. it's a complilation of stories, one of them about his divisional lead, Lt. Roger Haberman, VMF-121. It's a really interesting account of the details of the days in the Pacific.

...There was a shortage of rubber at the time so the training squadrons had few tires for the aircraft - it resulted in some pilots getting as little as 9 hours in the F4F before going to the fight.

Here is a short excerpt from the book:

I remember reading what was the last interview ever given by Hartmann before he passed that was published in Military History magazine in the fall of 2002. It was pretty interesting.

"The First and the Last" by Adolf Galland is a pretty good book also, although a little slow in some places.

There was another book I read that detailed a lot about Marseille, Rall, Nowotny, Steinhoff, and a bunch of other Luftwaffe pilots. I thought the part about Marseille was good, especially how little ammo he expended per kill,

You are right. In the book "The Blond Knight of Germany", Erich Hartmann describes in detail his tactics: see-decide-attack-break. Truly fascinating. He always said a dogfight was a waste of time and energy. He preferred to ambush his enemy and fire at very close range unlike Marseille. Am wondering are any of their techniques taught today at the military?

I wonder if there was a difference in the books?

As I remember, JM liked to get EXTREMELY close as well before shooting, hence the reason for such low ammo usage per kill.

Marseille was probably the best shot of them all though like the others, he didn't have the total he claimed either. He was still a dangerous man though.

Point-Blank
 

I read that Richard Bong also thought he had to get very close, because he did not consider himself a good marksman. Most likely, he was very good at both things.

You guys are right. I meant poorly that he was more of a dog fighter while Erich Hartmann was better at ambushing his enemies. Both did shoot at very close range.

Bunk22, I don't dispute at all that there was constant over claims of victories from any side but here is something interesting I read from USAF Major Robert Tate wrote:

"Much of the debate and refusal to substantiate Marseille's combat record originates from one day of furious air combat on 1 September, 1942 in which he claimed to have destroyed 17 aircraft in three sorties. Not only did Marseille claim 17 aircraft, but he did it in a fashion that was unheard of at the time. His victims were shot out of the sky in such a rapid fashion that many Allied critics still refuse to believe Marseille's claims as fact. But it is precisely the speed and fury involved with these kills that has been the center of the Marseille debate for the past half century. For years, many British historians and militarists refused to admit that they had lost any aircraft that day in North Africa. Careful review of records however do show that the British did lose more than 17 aircraft that day, and in the area that Marseille operated. The British simply refused to believe, as many do today, that any German pilot was capable of such rapid destruction of RAF hardware."

His famous day aside, looking at other days where German claims and allied losses just don't add up, days where he scored, hard to determine acutal score. He was no doubt by all accounts a dangerous man and probably would have been overall the number one guy if not for his early demise. As far as his 17 kills in one day, have to compare the actual losses vs the claims and try to piece it together. Might be impossible to do though John B Lundstrom did it for the early months of Guadacanal. Must have taken years of research. Anyone got the time? :)

Aren't you a self-confessed HISTORY GEEK who is currently in KOREA??? :p and you dare ask such a question?

Sounds like a perfect Master's paper at your choice of Command Staff College!

USMCFLYR

I am but my weekends are reserved for drinking...a lot...and other stuff :) I am starting another online ERAU course for my masters...if only it involved history.

RIP - Warrior

"Horrido" is an excellent book on Luftwaffe aces...Has stories about all the top aces and a comprehensive list of Luftwaffe aces and their units.

Another excellent book by a fighter pilot is "The Big Show", by Pierre Clostermann.
A Frenchman in the RAF (Spitfires, Typhoons, & Tempests).

Actions define one, not words. Mr. Rall killed an awful lot of people in the name of the nazis. I'll raise my glass to all who fought, all who supported those that fought, and all those killed beating down the nazis.

Okay, let’s talk actions then. Gunther Rall married a girl who smuggled Jews out of Austria. She was a doctor in Vienna, and worked side by side with a number of Jewish colleagues. She helped patch up Rall after he crashed-landed his plane and suffered leg and back injuries. Because of his status as a highly decorated ace, his fiancé had to be vetted by Hitler and required the Fuhrer’s approval before the marriage. Hitler sent a field judge to interrogate Rall about the matter of his fiancé helping Jews escape, and he looked him in the eye and said “it’s the middle of a war, and you busy yourself with such sh**?”. Because he was such a popular hero in the press, Hitler had no choice but to approve the marriage. I think Rall knew that, and took advantage of it to berate the interrogating judge. That either shows impudence or courage, but it doesn’t show servitude to the National Socialists or their “Fuhrer”.

Rall did what he was asked by his country. He was 21 when war began. I’m not sure any of us would be any more courageous if put in his shoes. I think it is a folly of our day that we think we are so much better than those in the past. We are Monday-morning quarterbacks of morality. We have our moral critiques of the Crusaders, the South during the US Civil War, Nazi Germany, etc. They would have been astounded at how morally inept and clueless we are today. God help us, we who judge others while understanding very little about their time and Zeitgeist, and about how they made use of the knowledge they had.

I’ll let Rall himself have the final word on what he thought of the war: "...Die mich für meine 275 Abschüsse bewundern, wissen nichts vom Krieg! Sie wissen nicht, was es für ein ganzes Menschenleben bedeutet, dass man in jungen Jahren töten musste, um selbst nicht getötet zu werden. Sie kennen die Scham und die Trauer des Überlebenden nicht”.
Translated, it means: “Those who are impressed by my 275 kills know nothing about war. They know nothing about how it affects a man for his entire life that at a young age he had to kill others, in order for he himself not to be killed. They know nothing of the shame and sadness of the survivors.”

I'm not following the situation closely, but I understand that one of our combat aviators of the first Gulf War, Captain Mark Kelly, USN, is facing some political pressure at the current time. Military people are subject to the whims of whatever political leaders are currently holding power.

Russian, American, Ukrainian, German, or whatever, the military men and women rely on their political leadership to exercise their best judgment. When the political leadership makes poor decisions, the military suffers. It has always been that way.

Yeah. He's got a lawsuit coming in 🔥 and will win. I dont agree with Kelly politically most of the time, not schooled up on his statements that got him in hot water other than, I get his sentiment but were they were in poor taste. However, not illegal IMO and definitely not ok to pull benefits or pension. He'll win in court.

I agree that his comments were in poor taste. As a US Senator he should have simply resigned his commission before pushing the boundaries to that degree, not like he needs the chump change at his level of play. If you take the king's coin, you are beholden to the crown to at least some degree.

For those not aware military officer "retired" isn't what you think it is... it's actually "retainer" pay, you retain your commission, are subject to recall in emergency, and are expected to behave with some decorum. At some advanced age you do actually become "retired" in the conventional sense.

The courts will decide exactly where the line is drawn. Worst they'll be able to do is reduce him in rank to the last grade at which he honorably served, which would be O5. O5 pay with 30 years is good beer money.

Isn't O-6 pay something like 20% more?

You do know why Crayola only made 64 count boxes. That’s a s high as Marines can count. 170, 340, etc are numbers meaningless to the “Corps”.😉