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Old 02-24-2008, 03:52 PM   #131  
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Originally Posted by rvr350 View Post
Well, i hope that's not how most nwa newb feels they should be above 500 DAL newb from last year. I can sleep tight tonight knowing newb from both sides won't be able to vote this thing through, cuz I would be content with DOH for anybody hired after 9/11.

I keep forget who's the acquiring company...But hey, i do think this merger is coming, and we better all play together, or we'll lose a great time to improve our contracts.
so you can take advantage of the retirements that nwa has vs. deltas. yep that's fair.

I'm guessing your a delta newhire?

on a side note if delta hadn't payed out the lump sum and those pilots stuck around, would delta have been hiring for the last year? ie how many pilots took the lump sum and ran?

I'm sure the nwa pilots haven't forgot who came looking for the dance partner in this merger game.

Last edited by Eric Stratton; 02-24-2008 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 02-24-2008, 04:07 PM   #132  
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It's amazing to me how many DAL pilots are stating that NWA pilots are getting such a better deal. How is that? Because a payraise is being thrown at us, less than what I use to make, and we are suppose to throw our seniority out the window? If you read the papers you'll notice that DAL Mec is still in N.Y where our negotiating team has left. It was not our Mec that wanted to staple anybody but the Delta Mec that seems to have promised their membership relative seniority plus 10%.

I am so amazed at how people look down at NWA as if we were second class citizens. Are you kidding? Let me introduce to you some facts about our group.

1) We were the only group to ante-up money monthly to pay for medical coverage for our furloughed pilots.

2) Yes, we did take a bigger cut to protect retired pilots and the soon to be retired from losing an income they had earned. (By the way I have a close friend who retired from Delta in 2003 and is now living in an appartment, as outside of the lump sum he got, his monthly pension is gone. Is that right?) I'd rather make 10% less and hear how inferior we are but know we didn't sell our retired guys down the river.

3) In '98 when we went on strike to end concessionary contracts (remember the SWA guys wouldn't let us jumpseat, being how we were no longer working pilots. Personal experience on this one.) Yes, we did not get the greatest contract but it did illuminate management teams how costly pilot strikes are thus paving the way the UAL and subsequent DAL contract.

4) Now let's talk about Compass. We went out of our way to ensure that regional flying got back onto our seniority list. Protecting future new hires that if they were to get furloughed they would at least have a 65/hr job as a fall back.

The NWA seniority lists is filled, for the most part, with a great group of aviators who have tried to look out for one another. We may have the worst contract in the industry as we focused on scope/pension and many will remind us that we are lowest paid in the industry but our contract doesn't define us.

The reason DAL came to us is that Richard Anderson knows that NWA, with its Pacific presence, is a cash cow. The reason why so many NWA pilots are excited about the potential merger, is not the cash, is because we like Richard Anderson. We liked him when he was at NWA.

Now that talks have broken off why don't you DAL pilots ask yourself the following question?

Who would you rather merge with? United (much younger seniority with little attrition) Continental (well, we have the golden share with them.) UsAir?
NWA has the oldest seniority list with the most widebody flying.

If you're looking for a company that has a great contract why not SWA? They got, what 2001 guys in the left seat. However if you ever go on strike don't count on them for the jumpseat. I couldn't.
let's be honest here the compass flying is not on your seniority list and compass did not bring regional flying back onto your seniority list. no one is getting seniority while they fly with compass. maybe if you had not given up the compass flying they would actually be nwa pilots flying them. if people get furloughed you are assuming they go back as captains and not fo's because that pay is crap.

you are right about the nwa senior pilots, if the sheet hits the fan again any movement or recalls (due to furloughs) will be from retirements not growth because there won't be any from the delta or nwa side.
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:29 AM   #133  
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1) We were the only group to ante-up money monthly to pay for medical coverage for our furloughed pilots.
Uh...I paid assessments at DAL for years so as to provide COBRA benefits for our furloughed pilots. Where do you get the idea that NWA pilots were the "only" ones to do so? In fact the exception would be if you did NOT.

On the bright side, I think these examples reflect what sort of group most pilots truly are--I still contend that we COULD "all get along."
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:41 AM   #134  
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Uh...I paid assessments at DAL for years so as to provide COBRA benefits for our furloughed pilots. Where do you get the idea that NWA pilots were the "only" ones to do so? In fact the exception would be if you did NOT.

On the bright side, I think these examples reflect what sort of group most pilots truly are--I still contend that we COULD "all get along."
I agree...all differences aside, we should all figure out a way to get along. A split pilot group is a management's wet dream.
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:18 AM   #135  
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As more time passes it seems like this deal will not be done this year. Now the Machinsts Union is saying they are opposed to any merger (Yahoo business). NWA baggage handlers and ticket agents belong but DAL's are non-unionized. DAL FA'a are non-unionized also so there is alot of labor issues involved here in general to hash out. They may see if another group makes a go at merging to see what they can do though I think that pilot seniority integration will be an issue no matter who announces. When there is no clear "white knight" no one wants to give anything away because they know that status quo is working for now. I know it will hurt some but it is better for market forces to work itself out and let the next company to enter bankruptcy to liquidate and disappear. Not have the banks and airplane leasing companies keep extending credit. Their gates/routes will be redistributed amongst the remaining players and everyone will get a little bigger. But two big airlines trying to merge these days seems like too tough a task.
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:54 AM   #136  
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The problem with that mindset is that it might your airline that goes out of business and further that is not what has occured. Through the process the airlines have gone to the employees to subsidize the business model. The concept behind DAL/NWA merger was not to reduce capacity but to gain more effective pricing control.

I got nauseated hearing talk, that once United or UsAir and then NWA or Delta shut their doors all would be well. Are you kidding? Read Michael Boyd articles on that subject. If any of those airlines were to fail the remants would be picked up by multiple carriers and thus reducing pricing power. He used the example of UsAir. If UsAir failed and SWA took over PHL, great for SWA guys to continue their quick upgrades, but would that help the industry's pricing power? Or help restore wages?

If pilot groups continue to think so myopically we will continue racing to the bottom. At some point the airlines need to be able to price their product at costs or greater as continually going to the employee groups to subsidize the business model is not a viable plan.
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:34 AM   #137  
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Default The threat of arbitration

Keep in mind that management hints of calling off the merger could be a pressure tactic. They might proceed with a merger anyway, leaving the list to be settled later (probably by an arbitrator), which is the usual outcome. The possibility of imposed arbitration can be helpful at first, as each side hopes to reach a semi-acceptable deal rather than risk a horrible result from the arbitrator. But as arbitration becomes very probable, they dig in their heels, lest a generous "last offer" become a starting point for "splitting the difference". In addition, negotiators would rather have a bad settlement imposed than be on record as agreeing to one -- the arbitrator doesn't have to return to the cockpit and fly with angry colleagues.
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:13 PM   #138  
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Any 'leaks' on how today's merger meeting went??
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:35 PM   #139  
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Can someone, briefly, explain why a ratio seniority integration, with the appropriate fences of course, is a bad Idea?
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:43 PM   #140  
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Can someone, briefly, explain why a ratio seniority integration, with the appropriate fences of course, is a bad Idea?
This is just an example it is not accurate:

Ratio is good for someone like me since I was hired at Cal two years ago and I'm currently 78% company wide. For a United guy hired in 99 that might be 84% it's not such a good deal. The United pilot would rather have date of hire where I would rather have the ratio.
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