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Old 02-25-2008, 04:01 PM   #141  
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The problem with that mindset is that it might your airline that goes out of business and further that is not what has occured. Through the process the airlines have gone to the employees to subsidize the business model. The concept behind DAL/NWA merger was not to reduce capacity but to gain more effective pricing control.

I got nauseated hearing talk, that once United or UsAir and then NWA or Delta shut their doors all would be well. Are you kidding? Read Michael Boyd articles on that subject. If any of those airlines were to fail the remants would be picked up by multiple carriers and thus reducing pricing power. He used the example of UsAir. If UsAir failed and SWA took over PHL, great for SWA guys to continue their quick upgrades, but would that help the industry's pricing power? Or help restore wages?

If pilot groups continue to think so myopically we will continue racing to the bottom. At some point the airlines need to be able to price their product at costs or greater as continually going to the employee groups to subsidize the business model is not a viable plan.
exactly how will a merger gain more effective pricing control? is it one less airline that will refuse to raise ticket prices while they loose money? how many airlines have refused to raise ticket prices while they were losing their arses the past 6 years? I would bet every major out there.

what happens if capacity is reduced? haven't the LCC's just moved in and replaced it? their costs were lower and one of those reasons is because they didn't pay their employees the same as the majors and they outsourced labor groups.

what about all of those 50 seaters flying for the majors? what's the CASM on those things because everything that I've ever seen has said that they are quit high.

how many CEO's/management teams does it take to run a branded airline's flying. southwest 1, continental 5 (CAL, Expressjet, Chautauqua, Colgan/Pinnicle, commute air), delta 5 (delta, asa, comair, expressjet, skywest) nwa 4 (nwa, pinnicle, mesaba, compass) and so one.

so how do they gain more effective pricing control?
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:48 PM   #142  
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This is just an example it is not accurate:

Ratio is good for someone like me since I was hired at Cal two years ago and I'm currently 78% company wide. For a United guy hired in 99 that might be 84% it's not such a good deal. The United pilot would rather have date of hire where I would rather have the ratio.
As an '87 hire at CAL I would do better under DOH and get shafted using a ratio.
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:56 PM   #143  
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As an '87 hire at CAL I would do better under DOH and get shafted using a ratio.
Exactly I was using me as an example, and how complex an issue of merging seniority lists can be. What may be good for me at Cal may be bad for someone senior than me. Basically there is no good simple solution, other than not merging
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:43 PM   #144  
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I hope it is good for both sides.
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:29 AM   #145  
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More news out today-


By RUSSELL GRANTHAM
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 02/26/08
Opposition to a merger between Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines keeps growing the longer the proposed deal takes.

As talks between the two carriers' pilots unions on seniority rules dragged out, another union that represents many employees at Northwest on Monday said it will oppose any merger.

The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers said it is joining with a passenger rights group to oppose any mergers by big airlines. The union represents baggage handlers, ticket agents and other employees at Northwest, United and Continental Airlines, but not at Atlanta-based Delta, which is largely non-union.

"Employees and passengers are the two groups essential to an airline's success, yet they are the ones that are most hurt in mergers," Robert Roach Jr., the union's general vice president, said in a statement Monday. "Airlines must work with employees and cater to passengers if they expect to succeed."

Meanwhile, an announcement of the proposed merger deal remained on hold Monday while the Delta and Northwest pilot unions, both units of the Air Line Pilots Association, tried to resolve differences on how to combine their 11,000 pilots. The two ALPA units' leadership committees met last week without taking any action.

Plus, the value of each airline's shares have declined, which lowers the price tag of what would be an all-stock deal. Most airline stocks rallied on Monday, but Delta and Northwest shares fell slightly. Shares of United Airlines — openly on the hunt for a merger — also dropped.

Such developments could bring new headaches to the would-be merger's executive architects, who were hoping a pilot pact would reduce the potential for political opposition and delays in integration.

The machinists union said Monday that it will work with the Coalition for an Airline Passengers Bill of Rights to lobby against a wave of airline megamergers that could be kicked off by a deal between Delta and Northwest, the nation's third- and fifth-largest carriers. Kate Hanni, a former real estate agent from Napa, Calif., founded the grassroots organization after she was stranded for several hours last winter on an American Airlines flight.

Pilots union negotiators at Delta and Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest have worked out most terms of a pact that would allow them to get about a 7 percent equity stake in the combined companies, according to a senior Delta pilot and other people briefed on the pilot union negotiations. Northwest pilots would get about a 30 percent pay raise, while Delta's higher-paid pilots would get a modest pay hike, said one person briefed by people with knowledge of the deal.

Still, the two unions apparently remained at loggerheads over combining their seniority lists. Seniority determines most aspects of a pilots' career, from size of paycheck to how likely he or she will get laid off or have to work during holidays.

The Delta pilot briefed on the talks said Northwest's negotiators insisted on so-called "fences" to reserve some of the highest-paying jobs flying its big Boeing 747s for its members. The Northwest union also wants a scheme that would push thousands of Delta's pilots to the bottom of the seniority list, according to reports by the Associated Press and Minneapolis Star-Tribune. Delta's pilots generally have lower seniority than Northwest's because of a wave of early retirements by Delta's senior pilots before the carrier filed for bankruptcy in 2005.

Northwest's approach would run counter to the way Delta and its pilots union have merged pilots' seniority lists in earlier acquisitions. In mergers with Western Airlines in 1986 and part of Pan American World Airways in 1991, Delta blended the pilot groups in proportion to their relative size rather than strictly by date of hire.

The Delta and Northwest pilot unions have "two different philosophies," said Rich Terry, a Boeing 767 captain who has worked more than two decades at Delta. "In some ways, they're talking two different languages with this stuff."

Terry said he believes a merger of Northwest's Asian routes with Delta's European network will result in a stronger company. "When you look at the two route systems, it's hard to argue that it doesn't make a lot of sense," he said.

But there are signs of revolt among some Delta pilots who are unhappy about their union leaders' decision to go along with Delta's merger plans. Delta pilot Mike Stark and other members are seeking a recall of the four union leaders who head the union unit that represents about 4,000 Atlanta-based pilots.

The officials "have condoned secret negotiations and have already given their conditional approval to a merger with another airline" without consulting pilots, Stark said in his petition. He said the proposed merger could cause hundreds of pilots to lose their jobs. The group hopes to eventually recall the union's chairman, Lee Moak, but it's unclear how much support the group has.

Terry said he doesn't have a problem with the union's approach to the merger-related negotiations. "I think it's a practical idea," he said. "You can't negotiate something like this with 10,000 guys putting in their two cents."
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Old 02-26-2008, 12:28 PM   #146  
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Nothing is going to work to put these two groups together as long as they are both with ALPA and are using current merger policy. The NWA guys will loose seniority and the Dal gang will benefit from Rel seniority. I do however have a solution to the problem. Call the merger off between DL and NW. Then Doug parker can sell US East to NWA. We are both older more senior groups with similar equipment and both groups would gladly take DOH. Then Doogie can sell the West to CAL or DAL or UAL or SWA and they can merge by doh or rel seniority because they are similar pilot lists as far as age and longevity goes. Then everybody can get along.
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Old 02-26-2008, 01:40 PM   #147  
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Interesting take on where the NWA merger committee is. Here is the link to the whole article.

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/news...FREE&cm_ite=NA



Transportation

Delta-Northwest Deal Could Be in Jeopardy

02/26/08 - 04:38 PM EST

CAL DAL LCC NWA UAUA


CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- The proposed merger between Delta(DAL - Cramer's Take - Stockpickr) and Northwest (NWA - Cramer's Take - Stockpickr) faces a potential collapse, sources say, for an unusual reason -- Northwest's pilots want to arbitrate seniority.

Delta pilots oppose arbitration, which was shown in the 2005 merger between US Airways (LCC - Cramer's Take - Stockpickr) and America West to be an unreliable method to protect pilots from severe career disruptions.
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Old 02-26-2008, 02:04 PM   #148  
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Northwest pilots would get about a 30 percent pay raise, while Delta's higher-paid pilots would get a modest pay hike, said one person briefed by people with knowledge of the deal.
...
Pilots union negotiators at Delta and Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest have worked out most terms of a pact that would allow them to get about a 7 percent equity stake in the combined companies, according to a senior Delta pilot and other people briefed on the pilot union negotiations.
I just hope the merger is not put in jeopardy by the pilots union. They would be turning down a huge opportunity.
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Old 02-26-2008, 03:23 PM   #149  
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I just hope the merger is not put in jeopardy by the pilots union. They would be turning down a huge opportunity.
How is it a huge opportunuty for NWA pilots without something close to DOH?

in 5 years we get to make it back to where we are now if we go with DAL and relative seniority.

Or, if we stay on our own we move up close to a 1000 numbers.


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Old 02-26-2008, 04:27 PM   #150  
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If you move up 1000 numbers now your relative seniority would be equal to DL's and that is why this is going nowhere unless compromises are made on both sides. Oil at $101/bbl,economy going into recession,regardless of whether or not this deal goes through it is going to be a rough couple of years.
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