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Old 02-20-2008, 11:19 PM   #61  
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Ok, fine ratio it, DOH it, but lets get onto the other equally compelling issues:

Delta guys, forgive me but I'm gonna pop the pin on this grenade--ya gotta ditch the hat & double-breast coat--rather dated but hey ya get a NWA leather jacket As for the shirt itself do you guys wear wings on the shirt too? Say it ain't so! It makes it hard to commute with your epaulets off to enjoy a beer

Is this where I paraphrase George Castanza, "Was I wrong? Should I have not mentioned the hat AND the doube-breast coat? Because had I known that was a problem I'd have..."

Just kidding, ya'all. Frankly I think this merger has no legs, however there are a lot of people politicians and institutions who want or hate this deal. Cong Rep Oberstar from Minn has said he does not want this deal to go through and he chairs the Transportation Cmte, yet he might be saying that for public consumption, because the train has left the Minny station so to speak, so Oberstar may get some help on legislation from the GA reps so who truly knows; admittingly it is amazing to see it get this far. I hope it works out for everyone because I think NorthDeltawest (catchy, huh?) from a business perspective might bring more stability to our careers..."Was I wrong? Should I have not mentioned "stability"...

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Old 02-21-2008, 04:43 AM   #62  
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I thought I posted the NWA retirements (from a NWA pilot) on another thread. It wasn't that great and certainly a smaller number than either airline's growth number and both airlines need to get to a staffing level that provides for flying 100% of the schedule (a number neither airline had last year).

As far as your final number, that depends on your age... and would you rather be #10 at the World's Largest Airline, or #3 at Delta? There will be more choices at the combined airline if it happens.

Internally and externally Delta management has been writing that they do not need this merger and if the job security and seniority of Delta employees (a point was made to include pilots this time) is not ensured the merger will NOT happen.

They seem perfectly happy to continue with their stand alone plan.

But hey - Steenland gets to keep his job - so I'm sure somebody's happy.

I agree with you except the numbers you posted where assuming all pilots will fly to 65 and the simple fact is alot of our retirements are early outs meaning pre-60. Hopefully this gets squared away and is relatively fair to everyone.

Main thing is dont believe a BS newspaper, believe what the MEC tells you. Also another KEY thing that needs to come out of this is a LARGE pilot group who stands together and finally takes back our careers.
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Old 02-21-2008, 05:19 AM   #63  
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Let me get this right;NW pilots get pay raises to DL rates,access to new aircraft deliveries this year and DOH. DL pilots get leather jackets. I think that is DOA.
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Old 02-21-2008, 05:58 AM   #64  
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I agree with you except the numbers you posted where assuming all pilots will fly to 65 and the simple fact is alot of our retirements are early outs meaning pre-60. Hopefully this gets squared away and is relatively fair to everyone.

Main thing is dont believe a BS newspaper, believe what the MEC tells you. Also another KEY thing that needs to come out of this is a LARGE pilot group who stands together and finally takes back our careers.
All I know about NWA retirements is what other NWA pilots write. Even on this board several senior NWA FO's have written that the Captains they fly with are almost all planning on staying, especially if Delta and a payout might be coming.

The NWA MEC has been talking to the papers and is the source of some of these rumors. Search Chairman Greg Rizzuto and Vice Chairman Matt Coons in the news and read for yourself. Again, I'm no NWA expert, all I know is what I read in the papers and these guys are quoted in the last few days.

Finally, "the pilots" are not coming together - NOT AT ALL - not even trying to. The majority of NWA's and Delta's narrowbody domestic flying by departures or block hour measures are flown by the 11 Connection / Airlink carriers. If there was any effort to get them on the list, I'd be much more supportive of this merger for the reasons you mention.

One of my biggest problems with the merger is scope. NWA is outsourcing DC-9 flying as quick as it can and YOUR UPGRADE is being lost in the process. Delta does the same here, although the 76 to 142 seat gap between the largest RJ and smallest narrowbody jet is harder to fill. The Airbus has coast to coast range going for it, but the Pratt GTF engine will take away that advantage in the future. IMHO we are not "powerful" pilot groups when we outsource most of our narrowbody domestic operations.

I'm almost at the point of writing that this merger is not going to happen. One important difference between NWA and Delta is the extent that the employees and management work together. I do not think the NWA negotiators appreciate what this means. While the Delta MEC does support the right merger, they have been clear that they will stop the wrong merger. Delta management has been clear that they will only do a merger that protects their employees seniority. This deal could get pulled off the table. Delta is very happy with their stand alone performance.

Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-21-2008 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:15 AM   #65  
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Let me get this right;NW pilots get pay raises to DL rates,access to new aircraft deliveries this year and DOH. DL pilots get leather jackets. I think that is DOA.
Fins,

Let me give you my perspective as a 10 year NWA guy.

We have about a 1100 to 1200 normal age 65 retirements in the next 10 years, DAL has about 500 to 600.

About 20% of our list will be retiring and about 8% of your list. You have a very young pilot group ours is older.

We are parking some of our DC 9's but we are aquiring more a320s. You have 777s on order we have 787 on order 15 firm 50 options.

We will get a raise to DAL rates but both groups will get rates above that because of the merger.

So the question is how do we work this all out to be fair. Here is my simpleton idea.

A date of hire list with conditions. The condition is fences, 10 years accross the widebodies sounds about right. You keep your 777 and 767ER for your advancement we keep our 747, A330, and 787. After 10 years we will be on a normal retirement flow. Secondly is a no bump no flush across the board. You keep your seat after the merger only movement comes through vacancy awards.

I am know it may seem a bit simple but sometimes simple is the best. Whatever is done this group needs to unite for the future. Or am I the only one that worries about $1 Billion form KLM/Air France and cabotage.

As for the leather jackets, double breasted suits, and hats... now that is complicated.
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:18 AM   #66  
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Delta guys, forgive me but I'm gonna pop the pin on this grenade--ya gotta ditch the hat & double-breast coat--rather dated but hey ya get a NWA leather jacket As for the shirt itself do you guys wear wings on the shirt too? Say it ain't so! It makes it hard to commute with your epaulets off to enjoy a beer

Is this where I paraphrase George Castanza, "Was I wrong? Should I have not mentioned the hat AND the doube-breast coat? Because had I known that was a problem I'd have..."

Just kidding, ya'all. Frankly I think this merger has no legs, however there are a lot of people politicians and institutions who want or hate this deal.
Uniform isn't changing, there are real reasons for it and the Navy and Marine folks running the show do not want it changed. Others have tried - it aint happening....

I'm also thinking this merger is DOA. Internally I'm hearing a lot of "Delta's stand alone plan is working very well." IMHO Delta is not going forward without the pilots.
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:25 AM   #67  
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Fins,

Let me give you my perspective as a 10 year NWA guy.

We have about a 1100 to 1200 normal age 65 retirements in the next 10 years, DAL has about 500 to 600.

About 20% of our list will be retiring and about 8% of your list. You have a very young pilot group ours is older.

We are parking some of our DC 9's but we are aquiring more a320s. You have 777s on order we have 787 on order 15 firm 50 options.

We will get a raise to DAL rates but both groups will get rates above that because of the merger.

So the question is how do we work this all out to be fair. Here is my simpleton idea.

A date of hire list with conditions. The condition is fences, 10 years accross the widebodies sounds about right. You keep your 777 and 767ER for your advancement we keep our 747, A330, and 787. After 10 years we will be on a normal retirement flow. Secondly is a no bump no flush across the board. You keep your seat after the merger only movement comes through vacancy awards.

I am know it may seem a bit simple but sometimes simple is the best. Whatever is done this group needs to unite for the future. Or am I the only one that worries about $1 Billion form KLM/Air France and cabotage.

As for the leather jackets, double breasted suits, and hats... now that is complicated.
First, let me apologize - this reply comes across as harsh and that isn't the intent. But I think there are additional considerations.

After 10 years the Delta pilots will be retiring in LARGER numbers than NWA and you want to effectively staple DAL guys then bring the fences down in time to cash in on their retirements.

Who's flying the 72 RJ's NWA has coming to replace much of the DC-9 flying? Those jobs are leaving the property if I'm not mistaken.

Outsourcing, returning to normal staffing and growth are each factors which impact senority progression as much as the NWA retirement numbers. Delta's hiring numbers were revised up to 500 this year. That will mean nearly 1,000 pilots since 02/07 with nearly no retirements - with a large number going straight to the heavies.

So lets see, 1,000 now for growth, or 1,000 maybe if capacity doesn't shrink, over 10 years....

How about a ratio integration by seat & pay? ALPA mergers in the past have been pay and equipment type based. That would be "fair" too by past practice.

Thank God, I think this merger is going to get pulled off the table. Keep your Northwest, your Northwest. I'm not worried about Cabotage - I think we can outperform an airline with expenses in Euros.

Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-21-2008 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:28 AM   #68  
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I'm thinking Doug is going to be crying, he loses his big buyout and has to keep running an airline.
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:34 AM   #69  
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The only problem with that is newbs at NWA have FAR better seniority progression over the next 10 years than DAL newbs. Most of us chose NWA because of the seniority progression. This whole thing should go based on career expectations. If you were set to retire at #100 for retirement at DAL thats very close to where you should be in a combined list. I am set to retire probably in the top 20 at NWA if we stay on our own. I tell you what lets do DOH and put up 38 year fences
I chose Delta over NWA because Delta was hiring lots more and I knew I would have better relative seniority at Delta with the growth. I know NWA has lots of retirements, but the growth at Delta puts you in a better relative position than retirements at NWA would have put me. I've been at Delta for 7 months and I'm 95% on the list. That would not happen at NWA even with the "massive" retirements that may or may not happen for another 5 years now. Growth is driving the progression at Delta and it is better than retirements at NWA. 100 more newhires next month is much better than retirements for nearly the whole year at NWA. I'm set to retire about 30 or so at Delta so should you go ahead of me even though my relative seniority is higher? I don't think your projected retirement position matters, it is the relative position. So if you were to retire at 20 or so on a 5000 pilot list, you should end up retiring about 50 or so on a 12,000 pilot list.
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:37 AM   #70  
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I'm also thinking this merger is DOA. Internally I'm hearing a lot of "Delta's stand alone plan is working very well." IMHO Delta is not going forward without the pilots.
I would like you to be right on this one, but I believe 20 billion in corporate greed will outweigh pilots being on board.
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