Opus

Sure, we'd be all for fences for as long as you like, but for aircraft not bases. If Anderson wants to move the 400s and 330s to ATL and JFk or the 767s to DTW how would that work. Remember, Anderson came from NWA and had to deal with our red/green fences which, to him, was an absolute headache. My understanding is that it is DAL mec that doesn't fences and wants the ability to bid the 787 which isn't years away, but next year in 2009.

I'm a mid-90s hire I am on the 330, so why would I bid the 767 in JFK or ATL? My seniority already holds DC-9 capt and close to Airbus captain and will hold it within the next 12-18 months.

A previous post said open skies in Japan will open NRT to everyone. There might be some confusion on the difference between open skies and fly through rights, which we have not only in NRT but Osaka, Nagoya as well.

StripAlert

I like you, so I'll be gentle.

That's not how the deal was presented--or should I say rumored--to us, but since there hasn't been anything more official than leaks out of someone in Minneapolis and random posts on the DALPA boards from folks who have reportedly spoken with our MEC, I wouldn't give anything too much credence. However, as I understood the official rumor, it was basically an approximately 30% raise for NWA pilots only, to equalize the pay. Then we all get 7, 4, 4, 4 together. Maybe somebody heard something wrong.

Anyway, using your methodology, the raises would be cumulative, so it would actually only be an 8% raise for NWA initially. (1.30 / 1.04 / 1.04 / 1.04 / 1.07 = 1.08) Hardly worth going through all this trouble for, if that's the case.

As for taking something from each other, you are absolutely correct that any good deals in the contract aren't coming at the expense of the other pilot group, except insomuch as it may detract from management's willingness to give up more in some area that benefits both groups. 30% or 8% -- whichever it is -- is a benefit that will be received by the NWA pilots immediately while the Delta guys get nothing. If that negotiating capital could've gone to making the subsequent raises 8, 5, 5, 5 instead, then the Delta side has lost a little, relatively speaking. (Don't get me wrong--nobody over here wants different payscales. Just illustrating why some Delta people feel like we're getting the lesser end of this deal.)

However, it is much more pronounced with respect to SLI. Here, any gain by one group is at the expense of the other. And no matter how fair we try to be, there are going to be lots of people who feel they got screwed, and, in one way or another, they're probably going to be right. NWA folks will lament the lessened effect of the retirements on their progression. DAL guys will see themselves pushed down their category seniority lists as NWA pilots bid over to equipment they might not have been able to hold for years at NWA.

The only thing that's going to make people on both sides feel better about how they were "wronged" in the SLI is money, and lots of it. Maybe I can learn to love being on the MD-88 out of ATL instead of flying to Europe on the ER if they pay me 150% of what I would've been making on the ER had this deal not gone down. But the fact is, that's not happening. For whatever reason, our combined negotiating team has extracted nowhere near the concessions from the hypothetical combined management necessary to make this worthwhile enough for us (NWALPA and DALPA) to go along quietly. Sorry, but 0, 7, 4, 4, 4 isn't going to cut it for Delta guys, and if it's truly not 30, 7, 4, 4, 4 but 8, 7, 4, 4, 4 for you, I can't see much support in the frigid north for this either. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Again, you're basing everything on something that has yet to occur. Although I certainly hope that you guys get all 18 of those 787's plus convert the 50 options, whether we merge or not, there are any number of scenarios that could delay or destroy that deal altogether.

When was your junior widebody international pilot hired? Ours is sitting in Indoc right now. My point isn't that we have more widebodies than you (even though we do), it's that, without fences, as soon as the companies are combined, the mid-level to junior Delta pilots can say goodbye to widebody seniority as all of your 10-year guys come over to the ER. That's a gain to you at the expense of us, no matter how the seniority lists are integrated. Again, I could look the other way on that if there was some kind of pot of gold involved, but there just isn't if the rumors coming out of the negotiations are remotely accurate.

I'll concede that everyone has their preferences. I'm personally commuting to NYC for the seniority, even though ATL would be a lot easier. It's just not time to bid over quite yet. However, I have yet to hear someone at Delta say, "I hope this goes through so I can finally move the family to Minnesota like we've been talking about." For all I know, nobody's said anything similar at NWA about our bases, so let's call that a wash.

Again, the way things are here, right now, in reality, I don't really care that hardly anybody is going to retire in the next 10 years. I am moving just fine percentage-wise, and in 10 years the candle will start burning on the other end again. (Plus, I've been slipping large doses of Viagra to all the captains I fly with. I used to use rat poison, but it's just too obvious in an autopsy. Nobody thinks twice when a 52-year old airline pilot dies of a heart attack in a hotel room in Prague with a huge boner. They just look around and say, "Well, he should've called his doctor at the 4-hour mark." I always take his wallet too, mostly to make it look like a hooker killed him, because there's never much cash.)

We'll see...

I don't think it's that simple, and I'm sure there are enclaves at both airlines who would have valid reasons for feeling slighted if DOH or ratio was used universally. However, as I've already stated, that can all be overcome with the right amount of compensation, but that's not on the table yet.

I think we all agree that this is a bad idea. Let's hope we can stick together enough to convince management that it's going to be a huge mess if they go ahead with this against the will of the pilot groups.

Eric Stratton

StripAlert

in regards to the pay, if nwa raised the nwa pilots pay to that of delta,(prior to any merger) which they could and probably still keep their costs at or below deltas and give both the same 7,4,4,4 pay raises, would that be fair. If nwa brought higher operating costs to the table I would see why the delta pilot group would be upset but they don't, they actually bring lower operating costs. if my information is accurate. if they are the same(right now) or higher than deltas cost I would be ****ed too.

I think you have to look at firm orders. that's why they are orders and not options. with the firm orders of both then they aren't that much different. the way you can protect yourself from either pilot group moving into each others territory is by some fences. I don't think they need to be 20 years but 5 could possibly lessen the blow of movers and protect your new hires. it's not a merger with airtran or jetblue where there aren't any widebodies.

the ratio/doh was just an example that it isn't as cut and dry as some like to think it is.

I think if management wants it to go through it will. Do you know of any merger that the pilots wanted.

StripAlert

I think that's what creeping everyone out right now is that they seem to be listening to the pilots. Just waiting for the other shoe to drop...

Justdoinmyjob

THe understanding I got from my neighbor who works in route planning for Delta is that we don't want NWA for the Fifth freedom rights, but rather the airframes to start flying out of LAX to many points in the Pacific, bypassing Japan altogether. Seems we still have route authorities from Pan Am that we just don't have the airframes to serve.

nwaf16dude

I'm pretty sure Delta's Pan Am purchase was the atlantic operation only. United bought the Pacific operation from them in the mid 80's.

Justdoinmyjob

We still got a bunch of authorities in the Pacific. There is a list at DOT which shows all route authorities for all carriers. The ones I found interesting were all the ones Delta has to Cuba, although Miami-Havana is held by United. I'll see if I can find it again and post it.

These are by carrier and country.

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/intav/carrier.pdf

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/intav/country.pdf

slinky

What I cannot understand, please do not take this as any slam on my soon to be NW coworkers, is that if this statement is true, why do we not just take the money from the merger pot and just buy a sh!t load of 787 or big Busses and go it alone? Sounds cheaper to me. Anyone? This deal is going to cost something like a couple billion right? Why not just put in orders for aircraft and go it alone instead of dealing with intergrating two large workforces?

slinky

Justdoinmyjob

Where are we going to get the bodies to fly all these new aircraft?

Opus

Why not just put in orders for aircraft and go it alone instead of dealing with intergrating two large workforces?


Could not the NWA guys make the same arguement. Our costs are 10-15% below DAL and we have more $ in the bank. (I believe we are now sitting on over 4B) But the problem is getting airplanes. The 787 is backed up until 2014 for new orders and I know we are looking for 5 more 330s but Airbus is backed up as well unless we can find a carrier to sell their slot.