Delta Pilots Rejects Arbitration With Northwest Pilots
03-19-2008, 06:57 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
The take on this is that NWA was way to quick to come back to the table after the last round. IE just more negotiating. That said. You cannot predict the future any of it.
Early outs, medicals or age 65. I am sure that there will be some lawsuits in the next few years over that law. We need to agree on the constants known today. Many disagree. It is just fact.
It APPEARS that the NWA mec really wants this deal done. I have my suspicions. DAL is parking jets, UAL is parking jets, I am sure that NWA is right around the corner on that as well. I will bet that the MEC is aware of this. They want this done so the brunt of the cuts will be felt by a merged list. (read not NWA pilots) That is fine, but Lee and Co at DAL see this and will not agree to anything that could possible put people on the street from the DAL side. As our MEC stated today, and we have the backing of RA and co for the time being; No arbitration. It has to be agreed to prior to their being an announcement. I do not think that this will change. There are too many pitfalls that could kill this deal in the long run.
I think that if we are all very realistic on what this merger means to each individual, as well as each pilot group we can accomplish something great. There is a very tall upside to this deal. Long term the ****ing over the current issues will seem stupid. There is a lot of growth that DAL wants to do after the deal is approved. It truly does not matter where oil is, it is mostly overseas where we deal in euros or the currency de jour. A lot is to places than many will not try to fly. (Read less competition long term) To realize this we need a deal. Will it happen, I do not know, but trying to placate each fractions desires is not the way to get it done.
Early outs, medicals or age 65. I am sure that there will be some lawsuits in the next few years over that law. We need to agree on the constants known today. Many disagree. It is just fact.
It APPEARS that the NWA mec really wants this deal done. I have my suspicions. DAL is parking jets, UAL is parking jets, I am sure that NWA is right around the corner on that as well. I will bet that the MEC is aware of this. They want this done so the brunt of the cuts will be felt by a merged list. (read not NWA pilots) That is fine, but Lee and Co at DAL see this and will not agree to anything that could possible put people on the street from the DAL side. As our MEC stated today, and we have the backing of RA and co for the time being; No arbitration. It has to be agreed to prior to their being an announcement. I do not think that this will change. There are too many pitfalls that could kill this deal in the long run.
I think that if we are all very realistic on what this merger means to each individual, as well as each pilot group we can accomplish something great. There is a very tall upside to this deal. Long term the ****ing over the current issues will seem stupid. There is a lot of growth that DAL wants to do after the deal is approved. It truly does not matter where oil is, it is mostly overseas where we deal in euros or the currency de jour. A lot is to places than many will not try to fly. (Read less competition long term) To realize this we need a deal. Will it happen, I do not know, but trying to placate each fractions desires is not the way to get it done.
1. I thought you couldn't predict the future...any of it.
2. I thought delta guys said that no airplanes were going to be parked.
I guess you really can't predict the future
03-19-2008, 07:19 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by Superpilot92
DC-9s - The number of DC-9s will be reduced to 68 aircraft over the course of the year, with the largest reduction coming after the summer. We plan to operate a year-end fleet consisting of 34 - 50s, 12 - 40s and 22 - 30s
50% of the dc9 fleet by the end of the year will be DC9-50's So just to split hairs,a little background for you on the dc9-50
The DC-9-50 is the largest member of the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/717 family to bear the DC-9 designation. Launched in mid 1973, the DC-9-50 is a further 2.44m (8ft 0in) longer than the DC-9-40, or 4.34m (14ft 3in) longer than the DC-9-30, and has maximum seating for 139 passengers. Delivered from August 1975 - 1980, the DC-9-50 introduced a new look cabin interior designed to make more efficient use of the space available and give the impression of a more spacious interior, plus other improved features such as an improved anti skid braking system and quieter engines compared with the DC-9-40.
50% of the dc9 fleet by the end of the year will be DC9-50's So just to split hairs,a little background for you on the dc9-50
The DC-9-50 is the largest member of the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/717 family to bear the DC-9 designation. Launched in mid 1973, the DC-9-50 is a further 2.44m (8ft 0in) longer than the DC-9-40, or 4.34m (14ft 3in) longer than the DC-9-30, and has maximum seating for 139 passengers. Delivered from August 1975 - 1980, the DC-9-50 introduced a new look cabin interior designed to make more efficient use of the space available and give the impression of a more spacious interior, plus other improved features such as an improved anti skid braking system and quieter engines compared with the DC-9-40.
Super,
Have you noticed that no matter how many times you post the facts you have to repeat them over and over? Fun, isn't it?
03-19-2008, 07:23 PM
#23
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Originally Posted by newKnow
Super,
Have you noticed that no matter how many times you post the facts you have to repeat them over and over? Fun, isn't it?
Have you noticed that no matter how many times you post the facts you have to repeat them over and over? Fun, isn't it?
Oh well
03-19-2008, 08:10 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
If your so frickin smart, go knock some heads together at your MEC.
You want me to go tell them to go for DOH? & How do you know that I'm not knocking heads together at my MEC? APC is not the only forum, server, e-mail, ect. out there.
And it's "you're so frickin smart"..... not "your so frickin smart"
03-20-2008, 04:14 AM
#26
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
My God.
I don't know. But if I use what you put on here, I can make some very strong assumptions.
The DOH deal will not happen. I think we can all agree on that. So it is somewhere between ratio and dynamic seniority. This will not go to an arbitrator, and it looks like you MEC wants this.
Guess we will wait and see who balks first.
I don't know. But if I use what you put on here, I can make some very strong assumptions.
The DOH deal will not happen. I think we can all agree on that. So it is somewhere between ratio and dynamic seniority. This will not go to an arbitrator, and it looks like you MEC wants this.
Guess we will wait and see who balks first.
03-20-2008, 05:45 AM
#27
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Old Fart
Posts: 74
Never let it be said that you two never miss a chance at missing a chance. An absolute exaggeration of self-worth and importance at work.
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat same. It couldn't happen to a more deserving group of selfish blowhards. I for one am reveling in your apparent self impossed missery. May it continue for an extended time!!!! Please,please, please continue shooting yourselfs in your collective feet while we all laugh at your expense!!!!!
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat same. It couldn't happen to a more deserving group of selfish blowhards. I for one am reveling in your apparent self impossed missery. May it continue for an extended time!!!! Please,please, please continue shooting yourselfs in your collective feet while we all laugh at your expense!!!!!
Last edited by spinproof; 03-20-2008 at 05:52 AM.
03-20-2008, 05:46 AM
#28
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
ACL don't waste your time.
Delta has a unique culture that is not appreciated from outside the Company. In contrast, some people just fight because it is what they are used to and they assume it is normal behavior.
When this merger debate began, I pointed out objective facts and reasons why I would not want to work for NWA, or a combined company. These reasons offended some who could not accept the concept of you holding the position and base you hold now, even if by virtue of a fence to protect junior DAL pilots. It was "arrogant" that we wanted to maintain what little status our new hires had.
Certainly there is plenty of ammo for the NWA to debate with and they eventually found it. Their company makes more because it has very astutue revenue management and lower employee costs. Delta noticed this too and wanted the revenue management team.
Bringing the NWA pilots' cost structure up by 30% (+ maybe another 10% in benefits) was not going to help the combined company in the current revenue and cost environment.
Now that there is no merger, I think it is time to seek peace in the "mine is better" war. NWA does have a good balance sheet and may be able to endure the coming storm better than Delta. Delta seems to be planning for the future rather than running from it. The marketplace will decide who was right. Over the years, I've been impressed with the skills and professionalism of the NWA pilots I've observed. The NWA guys are part of ALPA, part of our peer group of pilots, and we wish them all the best.
Delta has a unique culture that is not appreciated from outside the Company. In contrast, some people just fight because it is what they are used to and they assume it is normal behavior.
When this merger debate began, I pointed out objective facts and reasons why I would not want to work for NWA, or a combined company. These reasons offended some who could not accept the concept of you holding the position and base you hold now, even if by virtue of a fence to protect junior DAL pilots. It was "arrogant" that we wanted to maintain what little status our new hires had.
Certainly there is plenty of ammo for the NWA to debate with and they eventually found it. Their company makes more because it has very astutue revenue management and lower employee costs. Delta noticed this too and wanted the revenue management team.
Bringing the NWA pilots' cost structure up by 30% (+ maybe another 10% in benefits) was not going to help the combined company in the current revenue and cost environment.
Now that there is no merger, I think it is time to seek peace in the "mine is better" war. NWA does have a good balance sheet and may be able to endure the coming storm better than Delta. Delta seems to be planning for the future rather than running from it. The marketplace will decide who was right. Over the years, I've been impressed with the skills and professionalism of the NWA pilots I've observed. The NWA guys are part of ALPA, part of our peer group of pilots, and we wish them all the best.
03-20-2008, 05:56 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 973
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
My God.
I don't know. But if I use what you put on here, I can make some very strong assumptions.
The DOH deal will not happen. I think we can all agree on that. So it is somewhere between ratio and dynamic seniority. This will not go to an arbitrator, and it looks like you MEC wants this.
Guess we will wait and see who balks first.
I don't know. But if I use what you put on here, I can make some very strong assumptions.
The DOH deal will not happen. I think we can all agree on that. So it is somewhere between ratio and dynamic seniority. This will not go to an arbitrator, and it looks like you MEC wants this.
Guess we will wait and see who balks first.
03-20-2008, 06:04 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
I am disappointed that the SLI issue wasn't resolved..... From what I have read and heard it seems like both sides have valid arguements and were unwilling to find the middle ground. Personally I think the sum is better than the parts and we all could have improved our lives. I have looked at the pay rates and benefits and I wasn't anywhere near getting a 30%+ raise out of this. My take was more like 8%-10% but I was happy with that!
Having been at NWA for 13 years and still pulling the gear on a 320 I am looking forward to seeing a bunch of our guys leave in the next 5 years. But even given the expected retirments I would have prefered to share the cockpit with my Delta brothers. The way I look at this is it wasn't an acquisition but rather a merger, both parties are bring good airlines to the table.
It has been mentioned around the boards that NWA ALPA has a history of representing the senior members at the expense of the junior guys and I do have to agree. But I also believe that the new blood in our ALPA leadership is trying to fairly represent all members within our group.
In any event it ain't over until the fat lady sings. My hope is we can all stop the bickering and work towards fixing all that has gone wrong in the last 10 years.
Having been at NWA for 13 years and still pulling the gear on a 320 I am looking forward to seeing a bunch of our guys leave in the next 5 years. But even given the expected retirments I would have prefered to share the cockpit with my Delta brothers. The way I look at this is it wasn't an acquisition but rather a merger, both parties are bring good airlines to the table.
It has been mentioned around the boards that NWA ALPA has a history of representing the senior members at the expense of the junior guys and I do have to agree. But I also believe that the new blood in our ALPA leadership is trying to fairly represent all members within our group.
In any event it ain't over until the fat lady sings. My hope is we can all stop the bickering and work towards fixing all that has gone wrong in the last 10 years.
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