Boy if that's true, than i hope some nwa pilots are reading this..it seems delta management is not trying to alienate them.

so they did meet then but on short notice.

You're kidding, right? I thought it was Blutarsky that uttered "7 years of college down the drain..."

The NWA MEC Administration was brought into this process the second week of January in Atlanta. They were given at least 10 days notice of the merger date and DALALPA's intention to get what they could from the deal if NWA didn't want to join. The NWA Administration waited until 3 days prior to respond. The Delta executives met with them 2 days prior.

Short notice? I don't think so. So now we go down the traditional merger path. I view that as a squandered opportunity.

I just spit coke-cola all over my monitor laughing... I can't fathom that you could actually be as clueless as some of your posts come across. tell me Eric.. what would the Delta pilots have to do to ensure that you thought they had done the absolute utmost possible for the NWA pilots? Puhleeeeeze tell us. No offense intended...

"a lot of people go to college for 7 years...yea, there called doctors" or pilots

where was it said that nwa didn't want to be part of the merger process? am I missing something? (being serious) the only sticking point was the seniority list, right? the joint contract was already done.

with that 10 day notice did DALALPA ask NWA to be apart of getting what they could? is that what you're saying or that they just gave notice to nwa saying they were going it alone.

I think its rather interesting people think that both sides could come to a SLI in a few weeks without 3rd party help. it's just too big of an issue and pilot egos are way to big to give in that quickly. both sides squandered the opprotunity. the sad thing is traditional means to get contracts/raises is through slow downs and that will most likely hurt both sides.

Eric,

You are either not reading any of the info that a DAL guy posts or you have the retention span of a gerbil.

This has been posted numerous times ad nauseum. The merger was effectively dead, DAL had sent all merger consultants home for good, until oil hit $110/barrel and Doug came to DAL to redo the deal. This is not a luxury but a necessity to survive. The timeline to do a deal requires that it be done within the next 9 months. That's a fast track as they usually require about a year and a half to do. The credit markets require the deal be done now. We tried to include NWA. They chose not to participate. Therefore, we had to relax our contract to allow the deal to happen. To get something for our efforts we negotiated LOA 19. The intent, the hope, the dream, the prayer is that none of us see pay from this contract. Rather that we reach a unified, jointly agreed to contract. We now have 9 months to get that done. We don't see any money until then. Nobody has been screwed. There are 2400 pilots at DAL over age 50 so the demographic is not horribly different from NWA as has been insinuated.

hey if you like to experiment with gerbills that's your thing not mine :eek:;):D

I would probably agree that they aren't as far apart as the nwa mec says but they also aren't identical like the delta mec wants to claim as well.

your 2400 number proves my point in regards to SLI. 1/3 of your pilots will retire in 15 years while 1/2 or nwa's will in 15 years. along with that there is at least a 50/50 shot that quit a few nwa pilots will retire when they hit 60 because they retained there pensions.

It sounds like by the delta mec giving up the scope clause guaranteed this to go through. if that's the case then the delta mec in my mind had an obligation to look out for all of it's pilots and that would include the nwa ones as well because it virtually guaranteed them to become delta pilots. like you said LOA19 only takes place if the merger goes through and if it does go through you have 4500 new members the same day you get LOA19. They won't be nwa pilots anymore they'll be delta and the delta mec didn't look out for them. if the delta mec is so smart and the nwa so bull headed and stupid they should have looked out for the other 4400 pilots that aren't on the mec. we all know that those pilots had no knowledge or say in what was happening during those 10 days. it's called doing the right thing, having integrity. the way it's playing out now is that it's leverage over the nwa pilots in regards to SLI. it's appears not to be about getting a fair and equitable SLI but to get what delta believe to be fair and equitable.(which may not be the case)

If it all works out before the merger date then great it's win win for everyone. if it isn't, then the old saying holds true if it smells and looks like poo then it probably is poo.

one thing that I can't get an answer to is this. what incentive does the delta mec and delta management have to get the joint contract and SLI done before the merger date or before the expiration of either contract. besides not having a pis ed off nwa pilot group. they expire about the same time now right.

Eric,

Using YOUR above statement:

1/3 of DAL's 7324 pilots = 2441 retirements

1/2 of NWA's 5156 pilots = 2578 retirements

Is that a big difference to you?

I don't know what the actual retirement numbers are personally, but you seem to spout off alot of info and rhetoric without actually thinking about it. Especially for someone who has no dog in this fight.

Eric,

The incentive to get the joint contract and SLI done is so the company can actually realize merger benefits ASAP and be a profitable venture. Anderson has stated in his road shows they have big plans for the joint fleet and want to move equipment around the system to best match capacity and yields. They also want to get another 20 heavy aircraft (he didn't say which type but we've been hearing 20 more 777LRs for a couple months now as our standalone plan) They can't do that as effectively with split groups and split contracts.

Also the faster they get the joint contract and SLI done, the faster we move to a single FAA operating certificate which has many benefits.

The pilots are also generally seen as the leaders of the employee groups...once we get a deal done, the other groups will follow too. (haven't seen a thread about how you merge union vs. non-union groups)

In short, the longer we waste time as separate competing groups the more inefficient this new massive company remains. It is in ALL of our own selfish interest to get this company moving along so it can be a profitable force to be reckoned with. As a DAL pilot, it is in MY interests to get it done because I want us to get better than these measly 5 and 4% raises.

Anyway...

really...

1/3 = 33%
1/2 = 50%

that right there is a 17% difference and yes I would consider 17% big. you wouldn't. the numbers may be very close but nwa has about 1/3 less pilots.

what is it that I'm not actually thinking about before I spout off alot of info and rhetoric like you say. please be specific.

everyone has a dog in this fight. whether its past (american/twa, usair/america west) present (delta/nwa) or future mergers (united/CAL). at some point most of us will be involved in a merger and they all set some sort of precedence for future ones.

I was told that RA also made the statement that since the price of oil has continued to climb there isn't enough money to to pay the nwa pilots only the delta pilots. it sounds like he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

I would agree with you about having everyone happy creates a better company to realise the benefits of the merger but hasn't that always been true of any airline (or company) throughout history? History says that airline management has always fought against pilots even in the times of huge profits unless they have something the company wants. hopefully the harmony and realising the those profits will be enough. we'll know in about 8 months.

That, unfortnately, might be true.

The train was leaving the station. The Delta pilots Reps chose to get on since the train's departure was inevitable. The NWA pilots decided to try to stop the train and thus far have had no effect on the direction or velocity of the locomotive.

Certainly the NWA pilots will get DAL's (now reduced since we did not get the SLI dela done) pay rates, but the equity opportunity is allegedly gone.

Yes... and not just pay rates, I hope some of the NWA pilots' aggression is directed at Section 1. We need the NWA guys on board and I think they will love working for Delta. It's a good place.

In Dave Stevens letter to NWA pilots on April 14th he said the NWA MEC personnally meet with Anderson and was informed of this merger. You say they where not notified? The NWA MEC knew beforehand that this was going thru. They have may not wanted this but that is a lot different then not knowing about it. Don't blame you future " brothers and sisters" for that.

Eric,

Here's one example:

"would it hurt the delta 88 pilots or nwa 9 pilots more? meaning could delta now replace the 9 easier with this new relaxed scope?

why would the delta pilot group even think about loosening the scope language any more?"

(sorry, I don't know how to quote from another thread.)

But here, you immediately assume that the scope changes have to do with parking -9s and adding RJs and are just aghast that the Delta pilots would even consider this.

Of course, then it was explained to you that this scope relaxation had to to with keeping all of NW big iron flying. Your biggest source of information seems to come from your "new hire buddy", which you take as gospel truth and entirely accurate.

And no, I still don't see how this merger has anything to do with you. As far as precedents being set, I don't see it. Maybe with regards to past arbitration decisions of similar mergers influencing future arbitration decisions. But as far as anything else, no.

AA/TWA had their own set of issues and hurdles and was for them to deal with. The same with USAIR/AWA. DAL/NWA, in my opinion, has it's own hurdles and arguments, but in the end affects only DAL/NWA guys. I don't see CAL and UAL walking into their negotiations saying, "well DAL and NWA did this or that, so that's the way it should be here" NO. CAL has 3-4 year captains. USAIR had what, 1900 guys on furlough when those two merged. TWA, according to many, had one foot in the grave.

All of these situations are unique and have little to no bearing on how things should be done in someone else's merger scenario. They certainly have no bearing on the day to day life of someone who works for neither.

Eric

From another thread you said:


"they chose only to look out for the original delta pilots not the up and coming delta pilots. I say this because it only takes effect once the merger goes through. at that same time all nwa pilots become delta pilots. you have to ask youself what did the delta pilots gain from this. it's leverage to hold over the nwa pilot in regards to the SLI. I'm not sure how this will play out but they also added a no furlough clause for their side only."

Absolutely False.

The pilot groups become one when a SLI is either agreed upon or arbitrated, and we begin working under a joint contract. The date that the merger goes through has nothing at all to do with it.

With regards to your last statement, the DAL MEC has absolutely no authority to negotiate anything for the NW guys right now. They could no more get them money, or work rules or equity or anything else any more than they could for the local Steel Workers Union.

You went on to say that DAL shouldn't have relaxed their scope and "damaged" this merger, I think is what you said. The DAL MEC believes that this merger is going through with or without pilot approval and with or without those contract changes. The LOA has to do with extracting value now (and not parking international airplanes by the way) so that the end result is a better joint contract for all of us. Not some sort of screw job for NW guys. How could it be? They are working under the exact same contract that they were before all this started. They won't be on a B-scale. We are 2 seperate pilot groups. The day that we are not, the joint contract goes into effect and everybody is paid the same rates.

if you notice at the end of those sentences there are questions marks. I was trying to figure out what was relaxed in the scope clause. I've never heard of anyone loosening the top end of scope. by buddy did say that it was 100 seaters and I'm completely against any airline loosening scope in that way.

gospel truth, no but guess what delta does have a history of giving up scope for pay. so it was believeable. kind of did it here this time as well. you got it as well as assuring that only the nwa guys get furloughed prior to a SLI.

if you don't think that others look at what happens with past and present mergers I think thats kind of naive. if the division between the 2 pilot groups causes big problems I'm betting that ual or cal would try and avoid those mistakes rather than repeat them. If it works out they could try and imitate them if the opprotunity presented itself.

It's not that good...

Prior to an SLI the NW guys are NorthWest, subject to the NW PWA and operated as an independant and separate carrier. Only after an SLI are they Delta. Seems to me that you are saying, prior to an SLI, if NW decides to park the -9s and furlough, then a DL pilot should be let go. That makes about as much sense as a CAL pilot being let go if AA decides to furlough.

Now, if the NW MEC believes that furloughs are a real possibility, then it would behoove them to either make a deal with THEIR management (ie Steenland,) or better yet, come back to the negotiating table and work out a JOINT contract with the DL pilots which would then protect their constituents.

One other factor here that comes to mind, once there is an SLI, the NW MEC would most likely be disbanded and the new DL MEC, comprising all LECs, would probably be led by a Deltoid, not necessarily Moak, but their posturing could be a tactic to remain in power.

That letter said that they met with him a day or two before it was announced. Someone else on here said that they had notice some other way, so I'll just leave it at that. :)

if the delta mec has no authority to negociate for the nwa pilots why did they get new pay scales for the nwa equipment as someone is posting on another thread. you say they have to wait until a joint contract is in place. if that is the case then why negociate those pay rates because its not part of a joint contract but yours? is it a carrot?

when the merger goes through they will be delta pilots just working under their old contract. there will be 2 separate lists but nwa will no longer exist.

I never said that delta should damage the merger. I said that if they didn't loosen scope then it probaby would have prevented it or could have damaged it by having to park the nwa widebodies. it was never ment to sound like you "should" go out and damage it. if that's what it came across like sorry.

in my mind that was a tremendous amount of leverage that you had. much more than you got in return. I get why it was done, for leverage. delta now holds just about all of the cards in the negociations. the sad thing is the only card nwa has left to play is the opposition/disruption card. that's the screw job to the nwa pilots. delta got the main things in the joint contract that were offered to both groups. pay and equity. your basically telling nwa that they have to give into your idea of a fair SLI to get those things. whether its fair has yet to be determined. delta thinks it is but nwa doesn't.

tsquare what is that ugly creature in your picture. hang in their maybe one of you future brothers can kill it for you...

How else could it be? If we are seperate groups, and NW parks airplanes, NW guys get furloughed. If DAL parks, DAL guys get furloughed.

How could Delta park say, MD-88's, and furlough guys off of the NW list, and vice versa. They are seperate groups.

Delta can't park airplanes and furlough United 737 FO's. You get this concept right? If NW wants a no furlough clause, then right now they would have to negotiate it for themselves.

p.s. no furlough clauses aren't worth the paper they are written on anyway from my experience of just under 5 years on the street

Because the NWA pay raises were part of what would have become the new joint contract if a SLI agreement had been reached.

No SLI = No joint contract = we are seperate as of now and negotiate as such

Isn't that what matters to your daily life?

What contract you operate under and not what your company is called.

delta announced it was parking airplanes before the merger, right. I've been told that there is nothing stopping delta from keeping those airplanes and parking nwa's instead. basically transfering flying from one carrier to the other. parking another airbus or 9 instead of an md88. just like what happened at mesa/freedom and trans states/gojets. if that's the case I'm sure the delta pilots will stand up and yell foul....because alpa is against whipsawing. wow, I just about fell out of my chair laughing so hard at that last sentence. :eek::D;)

your cal vs. AA furlough doesn't hold water. those are competing companies and delta and nwa won't be anymore.

I'll hold my tounge on this until we see what each sides respective positions were at the table. It may be that the NWA guys need look no further than their negotiators to see where the "screw job" came from and how their leverage evaporated. Maybe..... I haven't seen what was offered and we may never see.

Parking some -88's and taking delivery of 777's and 737's resulting in a either a zero sum or a slight net gain of pilots needed.

has everyone forgoten that both airlines were parking airplane before the merger. it's amazing how it's alway nwa and never delta.

I guess here's some more rhetoric from what I have gathered. what prevents delta from parking an airbus or 9 instead of an md80 or 757vs757. it's called whipsawing just like what happened with mesa/freedom or trans states/gojets. two different operating certificates (one company) and yet they grew one and shrank the other.

[QUOTE=Jay5150;367874]Isn't that what matters to your daily life?

What contract you operate under and not what your company is called.[/QUOTE]

I would agree and also throw in bases. living in base makes life much more enjoyable

read above:rolleyes:

nwa's parking weren't causing furloughs either. under utlilizing the 9's.

they also had orders if boeing can stop the delays.

I am amused at some of the comments from Delta people about how the NWA pilot's leverage evaporated. As if to infer that the loss of leverage had something to do with negotiating prowess on the Delta side or stupidity on the NWA side. This is very, very simple. The two companies decided that Delta would be the acquiring carrier. Once that occured, all that the Delta MEC needed to do was curry favor with management - which they did with scope language changes that allow NWA the ability to continue flying big iron internationally where most of the money is made. If NWA had been the acquiring company, the exact same thing could have been done by the NWA MEC. In fact we would have had to relax scope as well in order for DAL wide bodies to continue flying.

The offensive part of this for NWA folks is that the DAL scope change was required to keep NWA planes in the air and making a ton of money for the new Delta. But the DAL MEC thought they alone should get the money for this change that affected NWA. The classy thing to do would have been to escrow the monies collected after the triggering events allowed Delta pilots to actually receive the pay raises. In that way, the bar for everyone would have been raised for the new combined contract, and the Delta pilots would have acknowledged the huge value of NWA continuing to fly big iron international helping both balance sheets. That of course did not happen and I think NWA pilots were/are shocked at the treatment.

Carl

...........

Here you go again...

I didn't say orders. I wasn't referring to some future order book for a plane that hasn't flown yet. I said taking deliveries. As in now, right now, this year with real airplanes. 2 777's which have just been delivered and 10 737's that start arriving in June.

Sorry Carl, I ain't buying it. If the NWA contract had such language then what difference does it make who's the aquiring carrier. It's my understanding that no such language exists in the NWA contract (or at the very least not to the extent of DAL's) and that's why DALPA was approached. I don't have your contract to read but how would DAL being the "aquiring" carrier make any part of your contract void?

Your understanding is incorrect. We have very strong scope with regard to international wide body flying. I don't know your contract but from what I hear you folks talk about, it sounds very similar to ours. If we had been the acquiring carrier, our scope would have had to be modified as we are already at the limit of code share for wide body international flying. Where we are weak (in my opinion) is under 100 seat scope language. I know our guys tried their best, but it wasn't enough.

As far as why DALPA was approached, it was because one of the very first announcements about this was that Delta would be the acquiring carrier. Why on Earth would NWALPA be approached by the acquiring carrier?? I'm fairly certain that happened because Anderson is a much better CEO than Steenland and EVERYONE knows it. Steenland and the NWA board were smart enough to realize it, and agree to be acquired by DAL. Now, if the Japanese were to balk at allowing the 5th freedom rights to be transferred to another company, then NWA may have to be the acquiring company after all. But all these things are unknowable at this early stage.

Carl

So...Is this an aquisition and not a merger?

Carl,
Are you sure about that? How much did NW make last quarter? It seems the more any airline flies these days the more money they lose.
Scoop

My understanding is that it is an acquisition based on a "no cash" stock swap where NWA shares will be replaced by DAL shares at a ratio that values the transaction at just under 4 billion dollars for NWA

Carl