Why DAL's proposed ratio is inequitable
#141
I would be interested in hearing DAL pilot's opinions on why your International flying does seem to go so junior. Obviously, if new hires are getting it, it's only because someone more senior doesn't want it. I understand the problems with commuting to JFK, of course, but what other things tend to keep it junior? What is your international over-ride/per diem? What are the trips like?
It's basically what the posters above said. The reserve system is no fun and the junior line holder trips pretty much suck. So guys really hold out until they are well into the lines before bidding it and you have sort of a revolving door at the bottom as new hires get forced into it and then bid out at the first opportunity.
Override is $5 CA & $3 FO. (although this new LOA ups that)
Per diem is $2.40 (new LOA ups that too)
I just skimmed through the e-mail and can't remember the values they each increase to.
#142
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 39
kool aid
your mec is opposed to this merger. you need to support their decision. as much as you want to pretend. the dal pilots are not your friend. this merger can still be killed. they can be left with all their debt. i would rather get my 20,000. a year in the 401k (as i am sure you are getting). in our contract, all the 787 orders must come to us (including the options), you were here in 98, bring the cobra back.....
#143
your mec is opposed to this merger. you need to support their decision. as much as you want to pretend. the dal pilots are not your friend. this merger can still be killed. they can be left with all their debt. i would rather get my 20,000. a year in the 401k (as i am sure you are getting). in our contract, all the 787 orders must come to us (including the options), you were here in 98, bring the cobra back.....
#144
Sorry but I don't agree. Our MEC is not God they are elected representatives, their job is to represent the views and desires of the NWA pilots. That is the reason I have emailed and spoken with all of the MEC reps as well as my LEC reps. My position is I am in favor of the merger and feel the combined entity will be a stronger healthier airline than either one as a stand alone.
Carl
#145
I don't know where you guys are getting this information from. If it's your MEC, I wonder what other lies they're spreading...
Of the top 500 at Delta, on the April seniority list, the median age is 54 years and the mean is 54.5. The number of Delta pilots in the top 500 who are younger than 50...wait for it...thirty-three. 'Round these parts, us good 'ole boys don't call that "the majority."
Remember, "buddy" is only half a word. Total pilots at Delta over age 50 as of today: 2,564. (I'm sure most of these have turned 50 since you talked to your buddy, though.)
I'm going to have to throw the flag on that one. I don't have a NWA seniority list, but I've got to presume that there are more than 8 pilots at NWA who are between 52 and 57 years old. If you are assuming that all of the NWA pilots are going to retire at 60, that's a non-starter. Unless it's the law, we're not buying it. So we'll move forward under the assumption that you'd retire #9 at age 65 if NWA stood alone, and so will everyone else, since there isn't another cutoff mandated anywhere.
According to APC, Northwest has 5,156 pilots, which puts you at "around" 9.7%. On a combined list by straight ratio, you'd be behind "around" 499 former-NWA pilots and "around" 710 existing Delta pilots, or 1,210/12,480 of the combined seniority list. (Number 710 at Delta is an 11/86 hire senior enough to hold ATL 777 captain, by the way, so no worries about getting bumped.)
Of those senior to you, you've indicated that all but 8 of the former-NWA pilots are older. Of the top 710 Delta pilots, 306 are 52 or younger, so in the worst case for you (assuming all 52-year-old Delta pilots are younger than you with no attrition), you'll retire at number 315. We don't know the size of the combined carrier in 13 years, but using today's numbers, you'd retire at 2.52% after the SLI vs. 0.175% at standalone NWA. Sure, percentage-wise, it's a significant difference, but not nearly as big as your initial post made it out to be, especially considering you're already a 744 captain.
I'll let the junior NWA guys chime in with their opinions on the raw deal you'll be getting, forced to spend the next 13 years plying the Pacific at the top of the payscale.
Of the top 500 at Delta, on the April seniority list, the median age is 54 years and the mean is 54.5. The number of Delta pilots in the top 500 who are younger than 50...wait for it...thirty-three. 'Round these parts, us good 'ole boys don't call that "the majority."
Remember, "buddy" is only half a word. Total pilots at Delta over age 50 as of today: 2,564. (I'm sure most of these have turned 50 since you talked to your buddy, though.)
I'm going to have to throw the flag on that one. I don't have a NWA seniority list, but I've got to presume that there are more than 8 pilots at NWA who are between 52 and 57 years old. If you are assuming that all of the NWA pilots are going to retire at 60, that's a non-starter. Unless it's the law, we're not buying it. So we'll move forward under the assumption that you'd retire #9 at age 65 if NWA stood alone, and so will everyone else, since there isn't another cutoff mandated anywhere.
According to APC, Northwest has 5,156 pilots, which puts you at "around" 9.7%. On a combined list by straight ratio, you'd be behind "around" 499 former-NWA pilots and "around" 710 existing Delta pilots, or 1,210/12,480 of the combined seniority list. (Number 710 at Delta is an 11/86 hire senior enough to hold ATL 777 captain, by the way, so no worries about getting bumped.)
Of those senior to you, you've indicated that all but 8 of the former-NWA pilots are older. Of the top 710 Delta pilots, 306 are 52 or younger, so in the worst case for you (assuming all 52-year-old Delta pilots are younger than you with no attrition), you'll retire at number 315. We don't know the size of the combined carrier in 13 years, but using today's numbers, you'd retire at 2.52% after the SLI vs. 0.175% at standalone NWA. Sure, percentage-wise, it's a significant difference, but not nearly as big as your initial post made it out to be, especially considering you're already a 744 captain.
I'll let the junior NWA guys chime in with their opinions on the raw deal you'll be getting, forced to spend the next 13 years plying the Pacific at the top of the payscale.
are those numbers true!!!
that means only 404 pilots are going to retire in the next 13 years...if my math is correct (it wasn't yesturday so jay5150 or someone else should check) that's only 5% of the delta seniority list. that seems way to low.
If memory serves, I remember APC board saying that 50% of NWA was to retire in 15 years (10 years before age 65 past)
if these numbers are true that is a huge split. for some reason I have to believe StripAlert might have his numbers off or I completely missed something.
#146
I agree with you, but it may not matter if DALPA does not want to negotiate. If our guys don't want to negotiate, then they should be recalled. If DALPA doesn't want to negotiate, then they have other plans and nothing will stop them now until the end of the arbitration process. It will become clear fairly soon whether or not DALPA really wants this done quickly. It will also be clear if our guys are the ones stonewalling.
I am making the assumption that the DAL pilots are on our side and want a cohesive group. I also believe that with fuel prices above $110 a barrel that DAL management doesn't want animosity among the pilot group. I do think it is time for the NWA guys to speak with their reps and tell them what they think and want. I also feel like it's time for the DALPA and NWA ALPA to get back to the table and work on the issues at hand.
#147
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Bebe Bus De L'Air Assistant Aerial Conveyance Facilitator
Posts: 351
are those numbers true!!!
that means only 404 pilots are going to retire in the next 13 years...if my math is correct (it wasn't yesturday so jay5150 or someone else should check) that's only 5% of the delta seniority list. that seems way to low.
If memory serves, I remember APC board saying that 50% of NWA was to retire in 15 years (10 years before age 65 past)
if these numbers are true that is a huge split. for some reason I have to believe StripAlert might have his numbers off or I completely missed something.
that means only 404 pilots are going to retire in the next 13 years...if my math is correct (it wasn't yesturday so jay5150 or someone else should check) that's only 5% of the delta seniority list. that seems way to low.
If memory serves, I remember APC board saying that 50% of NWA was to retire in 15 years (10 years before age 65 past)
if these numbers are true that is a huge split. for some reason I have to believe StripAlert might have his numbers off or I completely missed something.
Also note that there are no retirements until 2012, due to age 65 and the huge seniority purge that happened before the BK.
2008 - 0
2009 - 0
2010 - 0
2011 - 0
2012 - 2
2013 - 60
2014 - 75
2015 - 89
2016 - 136
2017 - 157
2018 - 218
2019 - 272
2020 - 348
Total = 1,355
And if you're curious:
2021 - 478
2022 - 567
2023 - 549
Total = 2,949
That would cover anyone who is 50 and over. This means that 40% of the DAL seniority list will retire within the next 15 years.
#149
Ease up on Carl,he's your brother. I wish these were different times (oil @ $90/barrel) then maybe DL/NW could afford to buy out the senior NW guys and we could use a relative seniority sli with no heartburn from the NW guys/gals.Wishful thinking,I hope our MEC's get it together.
#150
Carl