Why DAL's proposed ratio is inequitable
#151
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Since I'm the one that posted it, I remember saying that this is what I've heard from people when they were talking about the big "demographic" problem with DL/NWA. I guess it was an easy assumption for people (and me) to have made given the mass exodus that occured with over age 50 Delta pilots being allowed to take a lump sum pension and depart the pattern right before bankruptcy. Given charts posted by a UPS guys earlier, it appears that talk and those assumptions were just that - talk. An examination of the charts reveal a considerable demographic problem, but it's not the one I initially thought it was.
Carl
Carl
#152
Carl,It seems that you like to cherry tour assumptions. There have been many post giving you fairly acurate info and you use the "It's the internet anybody can make anything up", when you don't like what you read.Incidently, from the Delta guys I've talked to and from the MEC leadership the number one priority is getting the SLI completed and the two of us working under the same contract. I concur with these sentiments completely.Looking forward to working with you folks.
As far as what you hear from the Delta guys you talk to, I sincerely hope you're right. For the most part, I've always admired Delta Airlines. NWA managements were trying to destroy contracts way before it became fashionable to do so, while giants like Dave Garrett were building Delta by believing in its employees above all else. While I don't think Ron Allen did very much to continue the legacy of Dave Garrett, I think Richard Anderson believes in the same basic principles as did Garrett. I for one really hated to see Anderson go to United Healthcare. Anderson will be under FAR greater pressure than was Garrett, so only time will tell.
I too look forward to flying with you folks someday.
Carl
#153
My numbers are accurate. You completely missed something.
Last edited by StripAlert; 04-21-2008 at 03:20 AM.
#155
and you missed the fact that someone pointed it out a while back
your numbers also make the fact that your top 10% is quit young if it will take 13 years to only retire 400 out of 700. usually 13 years is about half of someones career.
your numbers also make the fact that your top 10% is quit young if it will take 13 years to only retire 400 out of 700. usually 13 years is about half of someones career.
#157
How many NWA pilots have retired at 60 since the age 65 rule came out? I know a few DAL pilots (myself included) who have said they plan to retire in their mid-50's, but I don't think we should use that as a planning factor in negotiations.
#158
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330 capt
Posts: 236
Yes, you can thank age 65 retirement for that fact, too.
#159
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
This is my first post as I just signed up.
I am a DAL guy and though I've read this thread (and several others) I'm having difficulty understanding why the relative seniority integration is so "unfair" to NWA pilots.
When I read the terms of the original joint contract agreement I thought the NWA pilots got a huge windfall. But, putting that aside, I don't get it.
It seems the NWA guys are saying something like "Well, we've got all this big iron and you guys have a handful of 777s. We should get the majority of the senior positions..."
But, they choose to ignore the other end of their equipment spectrum. The smallest aircraft on Delta's property is the MD-88 which has 142 seats.
If my research is correct, NWA has 92 DC-9's in its fleet. They intend to reduce the fleet by 24 aircraft this fall to 22 DC-9 30's, 12 DC-9 40's, and 34 DC-9 50's. That's 68 aircraft left. Every single one is smaller than Delta's smallest aircraft.
If the seniority list integration was done by fleet mix and aircraft size NWA would enjoy protection for their 747-400 guys, but all of their DC-9 captains should come in below DAL's MD-88 captains, and the same with the first officers.
When Delta bought Pan Am's Shuttle and North Atlantic routes in 1991 The seniority integration was done by ratio. Fairly soon (within three months) DAL stopped operating several of the routes they has just acquired. For example New York - Stockholm, New York - Oslo, and New York - Lisbon. When they did that they had excess pilots. Who got furloughed? Was it the bottom A-310 Captains and First Officers who came from Pan Am to operate those routes?
Nope, it was the bottom DAL guys and the bottom Pan Am guys.
When NWA brings to the table a whole slew of older and smaller aircraft is it "right" that the junior DAL guys get furloughed?
I am a DAL guy and though I've read this thread (and several others) I'm having difficulty understanding why the relative seniority integration is so "unfair" to NWA pilots.
When I read the terms of the original joint contract agreement I thought the NWA pilots got a huge windfall. But, putting that aside, I don't get it.
It seems the NWA guys are saying something like "Well, we've got all this big iron and you guys have a handful of 777s. We should get the majority of the senior positions..."
But, they choose to ignore the other end of their equipment spectrum. The smallest aircraft on Delta's property is the MD-88 which has 142 seats.
If my research is correct, NWA has 92 DC-9's in its fleet. They intend to reduce the fleet by 24 aircraft this fall to 22 DC-9 30's, 12 DC-9 40's, and 34 DC-9 50's. That's 68 aircraft left. Every single one is smaller than Delta's smallest aircraft.
If the seniority list integration was done by fleet mix and aircraft size NWA would enjoy protection for their 747-400 guys, but all of their DC-9 captains should come in below DAL's MD-88 captains, and the same with the first officers.
When Delta bought Pan Am's Shuttle and North Atlantic routes in 1991 The seniority integration was done by ratio. Fairly soon (within three months) DAL stopped operating several of the routes they has just acquired. For example New York - Stockholm, New York - Oslo, and New York - Lisbon. When they did that they had excess pilots. Who got furloughed? Was it the bottom A-310 Captains and First Officers who came from Pan Am to operate those routes?
Nope, it was the bottom DAL guys and the bottom Pan Am guys.
When NWA brings to the table a whole slew of older and smaller aircraft is it "right" that the junior DAL guys get furloughed?
#160
Wasatch,
Let me reread your post a couple of more times to fully get a feel for your positions then I'll respond......if my wife doesn't drag me off to lunch (ouch ouch my ear).
The first thought off the top of my head is we are not ComAir. We're just a smaller version of you, we just fly in a different parts of the world. Please keep that in mind too.
Also, relative seniority and equipment leveling are different from the ratio I hear we are discussing. We are a smaller pilot group so depending on the ratio, you either run out of NWA guys towards the bottom of the list (probably where the Delta "those bastards are trying to staple us" scare came from) or RS goes out the window.
Interesting times. I'll just remind you that if this was easy, it would be done already.
All the best,
Ferd
NWA
Let me reread your post a couple of more times to fully get a feel for your positions then I'll respond......if my wife doesn't drag me off to lunch (ouch ouch my ear).
The first thought off the top of my head is we are not ComAir. We're just a smaller version of you, we just fly in a different parts of the world. Please keep that in mind too.
Also, relative seniority and equipment leveling are different from the ratio I hear we are discussing. We are a smaller pilot group so depending on the ratio, you either run out of NWA guys towards the bottom of the list (probably where the Delta "those bastards are trying to staple us" scare came from) or RS goes out the window.
Interesting times. I'll just remind you that if this was easy, it would be done already.
All the best,
Ferd
NWA