Why DAL's proposed ratio is inequitable
04-26-2008, 06:55 PM
#191
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
[quote=A6ETrammn;374656]
As quoted earlier, splitting hairs. Point is the two companies are not that different, except for the major exodus DAL had prior to the bankruptcy.
The companies do have differences. Delta has twice as much wide bodied flying, more international flying, more aircraft on order, more aircraft on option, a younger more modern fleet and higher pay. NWA has more pilot retirements short term and more aircraft retirements.
That has caused a "potential" issue since NWA has major retirements in the next 5 years where DAL has already experienced them.
We all have issues. Your issue is more retirements, DAL's issues are our larger wide bodied fleet, higher pay and greater number of aircraft on order and options.
Not sure where the options counted in the DAL business plan were ok'd by the NWA merger committee came from, if you have a source I would like to pursue that. In addition, now I'm just relaying what was put out at a meeting, there was no, repeat, no integration method even agreed upon. There were discussions, but nothing was agreed upon therefore there was never a list. So to say that the original list agreed upon included DAL options and then NWA realized oh s@*t is suspect, to say the least.
If by agreed upon you mean ratified, of course there was nothing ultimately agreed upon, if there had been we would already have a negotiated SLI, equity stake for all and joint contract. My understanding is that both committees had agreed in principle on elements of a model that contained future retirements, aircraft orders and options, plus a factor for fleets/contract issues, however, when the model was run and a seniority list generated from that model, the NWA merger committee did not like what it saw and therefore there was no ultimate agreement.
Regardless, it's all water under the bridge, time to move on. We are now working under different, post announcement, environment. The SLI will work itself out in time, there is a policy that governs it, what ought to be a priority at this time is to immediately get to work on a joint contract.
Originally Posted by Reroute
As quoted earlier, splitting hairs. Point is the two companies are not that different, except for the major exodus DAL had prior to the bankruptcy.
The companies do have differences. Delta has twice as much wide bodied flying, more international flying, more aircraft on order, more aircraft on option, a younger more modern fleet and higher pay. NWA has more pilot retirements short term and more aircraft retirements.
That has caused a "potential" issue since NWA has major retirements in the next 5 years where DAL has already experienced them.
We all have issues. Your issue is more retirements, DAL's issues are our larger wide bodied fleet, higher pay and greater number of aircraft on order and options.
Not sure where the options counted in the DAL business plan were ok'd by the NWA merger committee came from, if you have a source I would like to pursue that. In addition, now I'm just relaying what was put out at a meeting, there was no, repeat, no integration method even agreed upon. There were discussions, but nothing was agreed upon therefore there was never a list. So to say that the original list agreed upon included DAL options and then NWA realized oh s@*t is suspect, to say the least.
Regardless, it's all water under the bridge, time to move on. We are now working under different, post announcement, environment. The SLI will work itself out in time, there is a policy that governs it, what ought to be a priority at this time is to immediately get to work on a joint contract.
04-28-2008, 04:56 AM
#192
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
Originally Posted by A6ETrammn
>>>"Wow,
I always thought that 767s and 767ERs were wide body aircraft. I always use "Heavy" in the call sign when flying them, and I seem to remember that they have 2 aisles in them. What else makes an airplane a wide body?<<<
Actually, prior to all of the bankruptcy give backs, the 767s, other than the ERs paid what a narrowbody 757 paid at NWA. Yes NWA did take bigger paycuts, bummer, so if you are using Bankruptcy payscales, then yes at this moment in time the pay is the same. Here we only use widebody aircraft internationally along with some narrowbody aircraft lately, sorry for the confusion.
One of the reasons for this stock swap is cash on hand at NWA. I believe the number is upwards of $4 Billion. DAL has around $2.5 Billion. The deal is about money, run by money managers. We as pilots are an afterthought. We'll have to work together eventually, if the deal gets approved. They, RA and friends, will split the cash and bolt when they can. Richard did it here, he has a track record.
I always thought that 767s and 767ERs were wide body aircraft. I always use "Heavy" in the call sign when flying them, and I seem to remember that they have 2 aisles in them. What else makes an airplane a wide body?<<<
Actually, prior to all of the bankruptcy give backs, the 767s, other than the ERs paid what a narrowbody 757 paid at NWA. Yes NWA did take bigger paycuts, bummer, so if you are using Bankruptcy payscales, then yes at this moment in time the pay is the same. Here we only use widebody aircraft internationally along with some narrowbody aircraft lately, sorry for the confusion.
One of the reasons for this stock swap is cash on hand at NWA. I believe the number is upwards of $4 Billion. DAL has around $2.5 Billion. The deal is about money, run by money managers. We as pilots are an afterthought. We'll have to work together eventually, if the deal gets approved. They, RA and friends, will split the cash and bolt when they can. Richard did it here, he has a track record.
04-28-2008, 05:21 AM
#193
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by DAL4EVER
Actually, prior to bankruptcy, the 767ERs paid around $285/hour. Don't remember the NWA "premium" widebodies being within 40 bucks of that.
04-28-2008, 05:25 AM
#194
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
I would argue that wide body rates prior to BK don't really matter at this point...it's like asking who the losing pitcher in Game 3 of the 1954 World Series was...
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 04-28-2008 at 06:00 AM.
04-28-2008, 02:05 PM
#195
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spliff
I would argue that wide body rates prior to BK don't really matter at this point...it's like asking who the losing pitcher in Game 3 of the 1954 World Series was...
04-28-2008, 02:30 PM
#196
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
Originally Posted by capncrunch
I agree! It's also like asking for concessions based on future aircraft orders. ORDERS THAT MAY NEVER COME.
04-28-2008, 05:49 PM
#197
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: FO forever
Posts: 413
Seniority is everything.
Date of hire: August 8th, 1985. NWA senority number 1241. Just on the verge of holding widebody captain seat at NWA. Offered class at Delta in Sep of 1985. Approximately 200 Delta guys senior to me DOH that did not take the early retirement if things posted on this site are correct. Other wise the entire Delta list is Junior to me based on DOH. So what is a Delta Sep 85 hire guy flying? I am glad that he has had an incredible seniority windfall because of the Delta early retirements. I do not want his seat. But I do not want approximately 1500 Delta guys being senior to me getting a crack at NWA retirements that will be coming keeping me out of seats that would have been in line for me.There will be no Delta retirements to move me up that compare to the NWA numbers as most of the delta guys are younger than me. That would be another seniority windfall for the Delta guys who are junior to me DOH. Where does the 1500 guys come from. Heard a lot about a relative position list. I am 24% down the NWA list. 24% of 7200(delta Pilots)=1728 minus the approx 200 guys that are senior DOH delta guys.
In a nut shell, al you have is your senority. IT is quality of life!!!!!!!! The company can not take it away from you. Everything else is on the table when it comes to the company. I hear a lot about better contract, higher pay, equity stake, etc. All these things come and go. The only thing that can never be lost is your senority unless the company goes out of business ,then nothing really matters. If I had my choice I vote no for the merger but I am along for the ride.
So, it will be a tough call to put this thing together. Some will loose and some will win. Some will be happy and some not. But to me, the most important thing is that times are not usual and if we don't get our stuff together as one single pilot group and try to make this thing work we may all be out of a job or back in Bankrupcy.
Good luck to us!
In a nut shell, al you have is your senority. IT is quality of life!!!!!!!! The company can not take it away from you. Everything else is on the table when it comes to the company. I hear a lot about better contract, higher pay, equity stake, etc. All these things come and go. The only thing that can never be lost is your senority unless the company goes out of business ,then nothing really matters. If I had my choice I vote no for the merger but I am along for the ride.
So, it will be a tough call to put this thing together. Some will loose and some will win. Some will be happy and some not. But to me, the most important thing is that times are not usual and if we don't get our stuff together as one single pilot group and try to make this thing work we may all be out of a job or back in Bankrupcy.
Good luck to us!
04-28-2008, 06:00 PM
#198
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: west coast wannabe
Posts: 815
Keenster,
Welcome to our forums. Just did a little research of my own, and with your DOH, you will be able to hold CA on every a/c out of ATL (even the 777), SLC 767, LAX 76/73NG. Now I do not know how much your payrate currently and what is your seniority is like at NWA, but you will be out of page 4 out of page 134 on our (DAL) seniority list.
I don't see how bunch of undeserving DAL guys would pass in front of you to get the upgrade that you truly deserve, because when we merge, you'll be slotted at your original ratio, and you won't do any worse than your current position.
fly safe.
Welcome to our forums. Just did a little research of my own, and with your DOH, you will be able to hold CA on every a/c out of ATL (even the 777), SLC 767, LAX 76/73NG. Now I do not know how much your payrate currently and what is your seniority is like at NWA, but you will be out of page 4 out of page 134 on our (DAL) seniority list.
I don't see how bunch of undeserving DAL guys would pass in front of you to get the upgrade that you truly deserve, because when we merge, you'll be slotted at your original ratio, and you won't do any worse than your current position.
fly safe.
04-28-2008, 09:47 PM
#199
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,867
Originally Posted by Opus
Scoop,
Do you guys still do T.K Rows? He was a NWA guy that got a procedure named after him after getting a little off(Well maybe more than a little) course. I heard we sent that intl procedure over to you guys years ago. We stopped doing it a couple of years ago.
Do you guys still do T.K Rows? He was a NWA guy that got a procedure named after him after getting a little off(Well maybe more than a little) course. I heard we sent that intl procedure over to you guys years ago. We stopped doing it a couple of years ago.
I am not familiar with T.K Rows but it sounds like a good story.
Scoop
04-29-2008, 04:12 AM
#200
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
[quote=rvr350;375444]Keenster,
Welcome to our forums. Just did a little research of my own, and with your DOH, you will be able to hold CA on every a/c out of ATL (even the 777), SLC 767, LAX 76/73NG. Now I do not know how much your payrate currently and what is your seniority is like at NWA, but you will be out of page 4 out of page 134 on our (DAL) seniority list.
quote]
Talk about a windfall....
Welcome to our forums. Just did a little research of my own, and with your DOH, you will be able to hold CA on every a/c out of ATL (even the 777), SLC 767, LAX 76/73NG. Now I do not know how much your payrate currently and what is your seniority is like at NWA, but you will be out of page 4 out of page 134 on our (DAL) seniority list.
quote]
Talk about a windfall....
