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Old 04-16-2008, 06:32 PM   #91  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
Okay...this is from the NWA MEC just yesterday. It's the first small piece of concrete information I've seen thus far:

The first two negotiations took place in New York City with oil below $90 per barrel. While we achieved agreement on a joint contract and equity and made progress on a seniority list, we did not achieve an equitable seniority list. The third negotiation took place in Washington, D.C., and while more progress was made on seniority, a seniority list agreement was not reached.
The seniority negotiations broke down over the Delta pilot leadership’s desire to include aircraft options, not just orders, in the seniority integration ratio. We were not willing to adjust the seniority integration ratio in favor of Delta pilots based on options, particularly when such options were unlikely to be exercised, other than as replacement aircraft, in the worsening economic environment. There were additional problems concerning calculation of the number of active pilots at each carrier and staffing assumptions for the future. The resulting difference in our respective positions on a ratio was substantial. The actual breakdown occurred when, in response to my suggestion that we both compromise and bring that to our respective MECs for their consideration, we were advised that the Delta pilot group could not move off their last ratio proposal.

This is fascinating. If it is true, it looks like the NWA position moved completely off of DOH. The disagreement is now one concept of a ratio versus another concept of ratio. As far as wanting aircraft options included in the formula for ratio construction, that will be a very difficult sell in arbitration. In my 3 airline career I've been involved in 3 mergers. In all of those cases the arbitrator not only refused to acknowledge options, but refused all firm orders as well. A snapshot was taken of the ACTUAL AIRCRAFT on the property on the date of "constructive notice" (in our case that will be April 14, 2009). From that snapshot, DOH/Ratios/Fences were constructed. Who knows what an arbitrator will do today, but that is the history of my merger involvement.

Carl
Wow...and it has been portrayed that the NWA pilots were so evil!
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:11 PM   #92  
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Originally Posted by MoonShot View Post
NewKnow,

Here's some info for you if you want it. These are the junior most guys in each aircraft for the projected category list for September 08. Hire dates up to 02/04/08 included.

(Captain then First Officer and then what top % each is)

ATL
777 - 1236 & 6247 - 17 & 87
765 - 2032 & 6468 - 28 & 90
7ER - 3012 & 7163 - 42 & 99
767 - 3617 & 7052 - 50 & 98
73N - 3817 & 6950 - 53 & 96
M88 - 5423 & 7212 - 75 & 100

NYC
777 - 1662 & 6088 - 23 & 84
7ER - 3674 & 7207 - 51 & 100
73N - 4693 & 7157 - 65 & 99
M88 - 6040 & 7211 - 84 & 100

LAX
7ER - 3204 & 6964 - 44 & 97
767 - 3845 & 7209 - 53 & 100
73N - 4050 & 7197 - 56 & 100

SLC
767 - 2912 & 7206 - 40 & 100
73N - 3476 & 6998 - 48 & 97
M88 - 4138 & 7204 - 57 & 100

CVG
767 - 3043 & 7167 - 42 & 99
73N - 3446 & 7196 - 48 & 100
M88 - 3825 & 7201 - 53 & 100

You got numbers for the NWA side of the family?
Thanks for posting those numbers. Is it possible to also post the bottom percentage of guys that are able to hold a schedule rather than reserve in each category?
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:13 PM   #93  
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Easy to say when you are on That side of the table!
You will probably be able to fly widebody international first officer... so what's your problem? would you rather stay in the right seat of the 9? Our MEC doesn't want fences... but I wonder if that would be preferable to you?

I'm just curious..
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:15 PM   #94  
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the bottom line is that the nwa mec is opposed to the dal nwa merger...all nwa pilots need to support this...we need to focus energies on setting up strike centers, and disposing of our useless CEO. this merger will be dead in the water with enough political pressure, and public complaints as nwa employees.i do not want to hear how our dal "friends" are looking out for all of us as a whole group. they have shown their true colors. and it is a group we want nothing to do with.....the cobra is back......
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:16 PM   #95  
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Thanks for posting those numbers. Is it possible to also post the bottom percentage of guys that are able to hold a schedule rather than reserve in each category?
That is difficult. it depends on the time of year. As 240ish if 260ish 7ER captains, in the summer I am a lineholder.. and in the winter, I am mid level reserve.
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:24 PM   #96  
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Originally Posted by nwa757dtw View Post
the bottom line is that the nwa mec is opposed to the dal nwa merger...all nwa pilots need to support this...we need to focus energies on setting up strike centers, and disposing of our useless CEO. this merger will be dead in the water with enough political pressure, and public complaints as nwa employees.i do not want to hear how our dal "friends" are looking out for all of us as a whole group. they have shown their true colors. and it is a group we want nothing to do with.....the cobra is back......
Did you notice not many of your colleagues respond to your chest-thumping speech? Take it easy, man... Drink some beer, (but not too drunk), and come back and post.
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:25 PM   #97  
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I don't understand your numbers, sorry. A buddy at Delta tells me that there are less than 100 guys over the age of 50. That means you have a built in demographic that is in essence a youth barrier that will be impossible to ever get past.

As stated in my first post, I don't believe that is right. If A-380's were purchased someday, someone like me could NEVER hold the airplane because my growth in seniority would be stunted by the youth barrier. This would be the case for all NWA pilots due to the Delta demographic. If so many of your 50 somethings hadn't taken the lump sum and retired early, I believe this list would be done already because the age distortion would not exist. This singular issue makes the DAL/NWA SLI a very challenging one indeed.

Carl


I'm not sure what part of the DAL list your buddy is looking at but my rough count of our top 1,000 shows 940 pilots with a retirement date before 16 April 2023; we don't publish birthdates but this equates to a DoB of 16 April 1958 or earlier. IOW they are over 50 now. I haven't done the math for the next 1,000 but your number is inaccurate.

I see no point in addressing the issue of who will fly the A-380 since neither airline has any on order. You'll come over at the top of the food chain since that's where you are now. Welcome aboard
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:34 PM   #98  
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To my new Delta friends, I'm reposting this because the silence is deafening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
Okay...this is from the NWA MEC just yesterday. It's the first small piece of concrete information I've seen thus far:

The first two negotiations took place in New York City with oil below $90 per barrel. While we achieved agreement on a joint contract and equity and made progress on a seniority list, we did not achieve an equitable seniority list. The third negotiation took place in Washington, D.C., and while more progress was made on seniority, a seniority list agreement was not reached.
The seniority negotiations broke down over the Delta pilot leadership’s desire to include aircraft options, not just orders, in the seniority integration ratio. We were not willing to adjust the seniority integration ratio in favor of Delta pilots based on options, particularly when such options were unlikely to be exercised, other than as replacement aircraft, in the worsening economic environment. There were additional problems concerning calculation of the number of active pilots at each carrier and staffing assumptions for the future. The resulting difference in our respective positions on a ratio was substantial. The actual breakdown occurred when, in response to my suggestion that we both compromise and bring that to our respective MECs for their consideration, we were advised that the Delta pilot group could not move off their last ratio proposal.

This is fascinating. If it is true, it looks like the NWA position moved completely off of DOH. The disagreement is now one concept of a ratio versus another concept of ratio. As far as wanting aircraft options included in the formula for ratio construction, that will be a very difficult sell in arbitration. In my 3 airline career I've been involved in 3 mergers. In all of those cases the arbitrator not only refused to acknowledge options, but refused all firm orders as well. A snapshot was taken of the ACTUAL AIRCRAFT on the property on the date of "constructive notice" (in our case that will be April 14, 2009). From that snapshot, DOH/Ratios/Fences were constructed. Who knows what an arbitrator will do today, but that is the history of my merger involvement.

Carl
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:35 PM   #99  
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Originally Posted by nwa757dtw View Post
the bottom line is that the nwa mec is opposed to the dal nwa merger...all nwa pilots need to support this...we need to focus energies on setting up strike centers, and disposing of our useless CEO. this merger will be dead in the water with enough political pressure, and public complaints as nwa employees.i do not want to hear how our dal "friends" are looking out for all of us as a whole group. they have shown their true colors. and it is a group we want nothing to do with.....the cobra is back......
yea...... good luck with that. After you come to the eventual realization that your MEC is arranging deck chairs and this merger is the best course of action I will welcome you into the life boat with open arms.
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:44 PM   #100  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
To my new Delta friends, I'm reposting this because the silence is deafening.
That's because responding to you in hopes of a fact based non-emotional retort is beginning to become a futile enterprise. The letter from our MEC which is widely available here paints a different picture. Someone's wrong or the truth is somewhere in the middle. Either way we still have to come to an agreement and the sooner we do the more we can benefit. (perhaps) You appear to be convinced that if this goes through some 28 year old Delta guy is going to bump you from your lofty perch. From what you've told us of your age and seniority it seems you have VERY little to be concerned about. Welcome aboard.
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