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Old 04-16-2008, 07:34 PM   #101  
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Originally Posted by tsquare View Post
You will probably be able to fly widebody international first officer... so what's your problem? would you rather stay in the right seat of the 9? Our MEC doesn't want fences... but I wonder if that would be preferable to you?

I'm just curious..
My point was, its easy for him to call someone moronic on that side of the table with the sweet deal. For the record, I support the merger, never said I was against it. I just do not want to see the NWA pilots screwed over (I am not saying they are being...I am just saying I do not want to see it...Just as you wouldnt want to see your group screwed over either)

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, I WANT EQUITY TOO!!! Come on, who doesn't want a nice check? Am I wrong in my feelings?
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Old 04-16-2008, 09:37 PM   #102  
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Easy to say when you are on That side of the table!

AV8ER13,

I think you missed my point by choosing selective cut and paste as a lot of our newpapers do.

What factual information provided by our readers and "informants" for both sides has resulted in anything other than childish name calling by a lot of our fellow pilots from both sides that do not have the slightest clue as to what the operational needs of our company are.

The NWA MEC has been extremely slow in provided any factual information as to why they have opposed this deal.

You nor anyone else on this board has yet been able to justify to me or anyone else why DOH or any resemblence of that type of practice should be burdened whith those of us who get flights out.
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Old 04-17-2008, 12:38 AM   #103  
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The only way to avoid this type of discussion is to wait until an airline is in liquidation, completely dead and pick up what is left. I don't think that NWA is in near-term jeopardy of going away. I don't think any of the major players are at risk in the near term. I do beleive that consolidation would help the overall industry, at the risk of the individual. In all seniority integrations, somebody thinks that they are holding the short end of the stick. Good luck.

MBB
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Old 04-17-2008, 02:48 AM   #104  
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To my new Delta friends, I'm reposting this because the silence is deafening.
I'll bite. Let's see what the orders/options look like when the PID is announced. I think that you might see a different picture under the orders/options heading. My guess is that the Delta MEC knows something, and that the NWA MEC knows it too.

If so, yes, that makes you the bad guys.
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:21 AM   #105  
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Okay...this is from the NWA MEC just yesterday. It's the first small piece of concrete information I've seen thus far:

The first two negotiations took place in New York City with oil below $90 per barrel. While we achieved agreement on a joint contract and equity and made progress on a seniority list, we did not achieve an equitable seniority list. The third negotiation took place in Washington, D.C., and while more progress was made on seniority, a seniority list agreement was not reached.
The seniority negotiations broke down over the Delta pilot leadership’s desire to include aircraft options, not just orders, in the seniority integration ratio. We were not willing to adjust the seniority integration ratio in favor of Delta pilots based on options, particularly when such options were unlikely to be exercised, other than as replacement aircraft, in the worsening economic environment. There were additional problems concerning calculation of the number of active pilots at each carrier and staffing assumptions for the future. The resulting difference in our respective positions on a ratio was substantial. The actual breakdown occurred when, in response to my suggestion that we both compromise and bring that to our respective MECs for their consideration, we were advised that the Delta pilot group could not move off their last ratio proposal.

This is fascinating. If it is true, it looks like the NWA position moved completely off of DOH. The disagreement is now one concept of a ratio versus another concept of ratio. As far as wanting aircraft options included in the formula for ratio construction, that will be a very difficult sell in arbitration. In my 3 airline career I've been involved in 3 mergers. In all of those cases the arbitrator not only refused to acknowledge options, but refused all firm orders as well. A snapshot was taken of the ACTUAL AIRCRAFT on the property on the date of "constructive notice" (in our case that will be April 14, 2009). From that snapshot, DOH/Ratios/Fences were constructed. Who knows what an arbitrator will do today, but that is the history of my merger involvement.

Carl
Carl, sorry, I skipped over your message before. (Too long, w/ small font) I heard a little bit about this from my reps. I was told that the inclusion of our 777 options was a response to NWA's insistence on including the 787 options. What's really happened?- I don't know. I do agree with you, though; we should include only what's on the property when the companies are combined.

Like you, I look forward to seeing what the last table positions looked like.

Last edited by CVG767A; 04-17-2008 at 03:33 AM.
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:32 AM   #106  
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Here's a quick stab at showing what seniority levels can hold at Delta (regular line, i.e. block, only) It may not be exact, but is pretty close.

10%- 777capt

20%- 767-400 capt

30%- 767ER capt

40%- 767ER capt

50%- 737-800 capt

60%- MD88 capt, 777f/o

70%- MD88 capt (barely), 767-400f/o

80%- 767ER f/o

90%- 767ER f/o

This is what I got from a quick run through the May 1st category list; if there are any inaccuracies, feel free to correct them.
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Old 04-17-2008, 04:21 AM   #107  
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Originally Posted by CVG767A View Post
Here's a quick stab at showing what seniority levels can hold at Delta (regular line, i.e. block, only) It may not be exact, but is pretty close.
10%- 777capt
20%- 767-400 capt
30%- 767ER capt
40%- 767ER capt
50%- 737-800 capt
60%- MD88 capt, 777f/o
70%- MD88 capt (barely), 767-400f/o
80%- 767ER f/o
90%- 767ER f/o
Those numbers are right on the money.
Northwest pilots should be able to figure out where they would fit in rather easily.

Last edited by Check Essential; 04-17-2008 at 06:22 AM.
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:06 AM   #108  
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the bottom line is that the nwa mec is opposed to the dal nwa merger...all nwa pilots need to support this...we need to focus energies on setting up strike centers, and disposing of our useless CEO. this merger will be dead in the water with enough political pressure, and public complaints as nwa employees.i do not want to hear how our dal "friends" are looking out for all of us as a whole group. they have shown their true colors. and it is a group we want nothing to do with.....the cobra is back......
Boy am I glad none of the guys I have flown with within the last 4 months have felt this way. Personally I am looking forward to working under better conditions, a management that wants to run an airline, and with all of the Delta employees.
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:51 AM   #109  
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Here is the problem with Date of Hire:

DOH is only relative to your current employer. In the business world DOH from a previous employer has no relevance to your newest employer. On the day that the two airlines become one global airline officially we will all have a new DOH with that respective company. Now I am not saying anyone will loose their respective longevity towards benefits or anything else, but just trying to debunk the myth that your DOH at airline "ABC" and my DOH and airline "DEF" has any merit or validity at new airline "ABCDEF".

For this reason I think that relative seniority integration is the appropriate choice. We could always fall back to ALPA membership number and base all the seniority on how long you have been a member at ALPA but that will fly like a lead turd. I am trying to see why everyone is all bent out of shape about being integrated on a list where a pilot hired by airline ABC in 1989 is one number junior to a pilot hired by airline DEF in 1995 if both pilots' relative senoirity in the combined airline has them within 1 to 2 % of senoirity of their "PREVIOUS" Airline employer?

I think its moronic for people to assume that your years of experience by virtue of your DOH grant you the ability to jump ahead in seniority of people at another airline just because that person started at their company 6 years after you did.

If you truly believe that then why doesn't every MEC make it a National issue that every regional pilot who gets hired (by a new company!!!!) by a legacy airline, at LCC airline, or another regoinal airline; that his years of experience in the National Airspace system flying those "D*mn RJ's" around at his previous employer are credited to him on the new airline's seniority list. I mean they are clogging up airports and airspace all over the USA with those small jets and turbo props in the same places all us "Big Boys and our Toys" go so why not? You know why that doesn't happen? Because we sold that load of crap down the river years ago believing management's argument that first year pilots should receive significantly lower wages than their counterparts because we (the airline) cannot use them to create revenue for several months because we have to train them to fly our way and our planes. This is the only business in the world where an individual has to take a significant pay cut his first year to be promoted to the real airline jobs and the "big money". Only in the airlines industry does one get "promoted" to the big company and take a paycut. While their may be some, I doubt the number is significant, of people that take paycuts to get promoted in the business world.

I am amazed by the hiprocacy and just plain ignorance on the part of many people on this board who want to complain about "their seniority" and what they are losing without taking time to attempt to completely comprehend any and all proposals. Many of you need to stop pontificating, put down the keyboard and wait patiently to see exactly what is being offered and what the proposals are. Then after the facts are known let's get debate those facts and see what we can do to reach a compromise. What a novel idea.

Does this make you feel better that I quoted the whole thing now? What I was pointing out is that its easy to call someone a moron , when you sit on the side of the table with a sweet deal.

And "I" never tried to convience anyone of DOH or Relative, I think I have played Devils Advocate...and again, all I am saying is I WANT EQUITY TOO!!! Is that so wrong to want? Can anyone fault me b.c. I would like some cash as well.
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:25 AM   #110  
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Boy am I glad none of the guys I have flown with within the last 4 months have felt this way. Personally I am looking forward to working under better conditions, a management that wants to run an airline, and with all of the Delta employees.
Well said!! Couldnt agree more on all 3 points. I'm at the 80% level and looking forward to commuting from SEA to SLC or LAX!!! Sven and Olie can have MSP!! My new DAL Bubba buddies can have NYC and ATL!!! Give me a right seat, a respectable paycheck, and a decent sked!!

Good luck to all of us!!

Mako
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