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Old 04-15-2008, 08:20 PM   #21  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
Staple,

It's not hard to admit a mistake at all. I do it all the time.
I'm sure you do. I should have made it more clear in my post that this was in reference to the NWA MEC...


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Until I see a list for myself I can only go by what DAL and NWA pilots have noted on this forum. And that is the significant age demographic associated with the mass exodus of over age 50 pilots at DAL to capture their lump sum retirement. I actually hope you're right on this, but I don't think you are.

Carl

I've got the latest seniority list parked right on the desktop of my computer. What has been posted is correct; you have had some bad info given to you!



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Old 04-15-2008, 08:27 PM   #22  
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Carl,

CVG767A already posted the number of 50+ folks at 2402. I indicated that if we were to merger based on relative seniority you would merge next to the number 711 guy at DAL. Of those 711, only 242 (or less because I don't know your date of birth) are going to be around on your retirement day (if they all make it that long). You will retire at 2% or better with a relative seniority merger. #251 is the WORST that you would do based on the info you gave us.

I think that we are all just trying to show you guys that some of the rumors that are going around are false. It is in everyones best interest to get this list squared away and on with life.

Protesting a new list based on rumors is no good. Lets all look at hard numbers and facts.

I'm willing to conceed that you lose less than 2% of your current seniority at retirement if we merge the list based on relative seniority now. Is that really worth tanking this deal for everyone? As long as we can get along, I think that this merged airline is going to be a great one.

As far as getting you a list, I'd be happy to send you one but I'm on probation and I'm sure that violates some code on page 409 in some employee handbook and I really don't care to deal with any of that.

Any DAL guy willing to set Carl up with a list only has to log in, go to Pilot Resources and Scheduling, April Seniority List and save it to their computer and email it to him.

Here's to a fair, quick, and fact based integration and a new joint contract!
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Old 04-15-2008, 08:42 PM   #23  
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Originally Posted by CVG767A View Post
I'm wondering where you got your data. I'm just under #1000 at Delta, age 50, and hired in 1987. I was one of the youngest in my class, as we were hiring a lot of Eastern pilots then. You're at about 10% on your list, I'm at about 13%. Our projected list has me moving to #89 by age 65 (pre-merger).

While you've obviously put more work into these calculations than I have, the numbers you come up with just don't make sense to me. I would hope that the MECs model this problem using data that both groups have verified.

As a 747 captain, you should see a QOL improvement as soon as you're under our contract; we fly our "ultra long-haul" flights with two captains and two F/Os. The number of 747 captains required will double.
You mean by age 60 don't you

On a side note to Carl and anyone else, if it does apply to you. Don't you think it's a little hypocritical to talk about how age is going to slow your seniority advancement if you're planning on staying till age 65? In essence you just bumped it 5yrs so why expect sympathy from the masses?
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Old 04-15-2008, 08:45 PM   #24  
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Perhaps it'd help if DAL offered an early out to NWA pilots over 50. That might ease some of the pain the older guys are feeling, save some money for the company, and keep current people moving up and new people moving in.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:54 PM   #25  
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[quote=Carl Spackler;365041]Moonshot,

I don't understand your numbers, sorry. A buddy at Delta tells me that there are less than 100 guys over the age of 50. That means you have a built in demographic that is in essence a youth barrier that will be impossible to ever get past.

As stated in my first post, I don't believe that is right. If A-380's were purchased someday, someone like me could NEVER hold the airplane because my growth in seniority would be stunted by the youth barrier. This would be the case for all NWA pilots due to the Delta demographic. If so many of your 50 somethings hadn't taken the lump sum and retired early, I believe this list would be done already because the age distortion would not exist. This singular issue makes the DAL/NWA SLI a very challenging one indeed


Your buddy is incorrect. Delta has over 1100 pilots over the age of 50. Many are quite junior as they were hired late in life. I am around 700 and age 50. I was one of the youngest in my class. Nearly everyone ahead of me on the list is over 50.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:56 PM   #26  
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Perhaps it'd help if DAL offered an early out to NWA pilots over 50. That might ease some of the pain the older guys are feeling, save some money for the company, and keep current people moving up and new people moving in.
That train has left the station...

In the immortal words of TomGoodman:

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Management is in a hurry to get the deal approved and closed. A prior joint contract and SLI will help them, and they will pay for this help. If they get it done without such pilot assistance, their wallet will slam shut and they will revert to a cost-control mode. A divided pilot group will then have great difficulty prying loose any contract improvements at all.


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Old 04-16-2008, 02:34 AM   #27  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
Not asking for sympathy at all, just trying to state the facts as best as I can discern them. I've read a lot of DAL pilots (and now you) sincerely commenting about not understanding what could possibly be distasteful about relative seniority. I'm stating the case as to why. The entire NWA MEC is now officially against the merger because of the SLI issue, so I'm fairly certain I'm not alone.

Carl
Carl... first of all, in advance... welcome to DAL. I sympathize with your issue, but I think there is one thing that has everybody all spooled up that is a misnomer. In your case Carl, so you would lose a few numbers. OK... you would not lose the seat you are in.. at the current seniority until there are vacancies in that category. It seems to me that alot of guys on here think there is going to be an advanced entitlement (that is what we call seat openings here at DAL) tomorrow, and you will get booted back to something else. Nothing could be further from the truth. And I am willing to wager that senior guys on the 777 at DAL are not drooling to fly the whale like you might believe. As for the A380... not at this airline. Ain't gonna happen... wouldn't be prudent... read my lips

Again, welcome...
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Old 04-16-2008, 03:51 AM   #28  
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CVG and Sully,

We have quite a discrepancy in data. Sully says he is #2400 and the vast majority of pilots senior to him are over 50. The number I've heard from numerous sources is that there are less than 100 pilots at DAL over 50. A discrepancy like this should be easy to clear up. I wish I had a DAL seniority list with their respective birthdays.

Carl
Carl,

I just downloaded the Mar 2008 DAL seniority list (from our own website; I won't post it here). Of the first 300 numbers or so, only about FIVE are younger than 50. I am sure that we have quite a few more with lower seniority numbers that are also older than 50. I did not even check.

This idea that all our widebody captains are < 50 years old is a myth. We DID have somewhat of an "early" advancement due to the massive early retirements (at the loss of our pension, BTW) but remember that many of those early retirement were pilots who were within two or three years of age 60 anyway.

Here's to a joint SLI, and lucrative joint contract that will be the envy of everyone else.
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Old 04-16-2008, 04:07 AM   #29  
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Fact is that most of the guys that I fly with on the 767 are 50 or older.
How do I know? They tell me.
Lots of myth here.
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Old 04-16-2008, 04:45 AM   #30  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
CVG and Sully,

We have quite a discrepancy in data. Sully says he is #2400 and the vast majority of pilots senior to him are over 50. The number I've heard from numerous sources is that there are less than 100 pilots at DAL over 50. A discrepancy like this should be easy to clear up. I wish I had a DAL seniority list with their respective birthdays.

Carl
If Delta only has 100 pilots over 50, then I guess I've flown with most of them! How does this stuff get started?!? Over 55 maybe.
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