keenster

What do you think about this???? And we are supposed to believe that they want to give us a fair deal!!!!

This is a very good explanation of what happened to PAA pilots SLI with DAL. Lessons to be learned ,as you "watch their feet"...

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 5:31 PM
Subject: one alpa

Gentlemen:

Great Web Site!

I share your frustration.

After reading what you are attempting to do, I thought you might like to hear a little history of the most recent acquisition and seniority list integration.

I am one of the Pan Am pilots who was "acquired" (Delta term) in 1991. I write this email to you as a warning about what can happen in your quest for a combined list. Do not trust Delta. Do not trust ALPA. We call one another brothers at ALPA until it is a choice between you or a mainline Delta pilot...then there is no choice. You will be sold out by ALPA or used by ALPA for the benefit of the Delta mainline pilots. I speak from experience.

In 1991 we (Pan Am) pilots were told by Delta management (Sr VP Flt Opns Captain Harry Alger and Captain Dave Greenberg) that we would be integrated into the seniority list in a "fair and equitable manner". This was Delta's terminology. Alger and Greenberg asked Captain Sheldon, Delta ALPA MEC Chairman to put together a merged seniority list. A committee was formed to investigate the two pilot groups and form a proposed seniority list. At this point I should point out that just one month before this exercise began, when the PanAm acquisition was a done deal, the ALPA executive committee voted to remove language in ALPA's merger policy stating mergers should be accomplished in date of hire! Captain Sheldon was a member of this committee. [N2264J note: The Delta MEC had a member who sat on the Board of Directors and would know months in advance if Delta were planning an acquisition then maneuver to change ALPA merger policy before hand. That happened again at the ALPA BOD in 1998, just a four months before Delta announced the purchased ASA.] The merger committee did it's job and formed a proposed seniority list. The list ratio'd Pan Am pilots into the Delta seniority list which resulted in a loss of seniority of approximately 10 years in the worst case. This seniority list was to be presented to Delta Flight Ops management at the next MEC meeting.

The next MEC meeting was attended by Dave Greenberg and Harry Alger. The proposed seniority list was presented to Alger/Greenberg who did not even look at it. Instead, they threw on the table what they termed the "company list". When the MEC looked at this list Alger/Greenberg presented, they were amazed. The worse case loss of seniority to a Pan Am pilot was over 23 years! Immediately, they recognized Delta wanted this list and would negotiate to get it. When asked what Delta ALPA would get should it accepted this list, Alger/Greenberg responded by offering agency shop agreement and a 2% pay increase. Sheldon and his MEC bought it! It is interesting to note that Delta Flight Ops management stated in prior years that there would never be an agency shop agreement at Delta. Many Western pilots dropped out of ALPA after their merger with Delta because of the seniority list integration. The Delta MEC had to assume the Pan Am pilots would also be upset with the integration. The combination of the two groups and the other non-members represented millions of dollars. The Delta offer solved a major economic and control problem of the Delta MEC. Thus, the Pan Am pilots were sold out for a 2% pay increase and agency shop by our "brothers in ALPA". So much for brotherhood between two ALPA represented major airlines.

The Delta "company list" started integrating the Pan Am pilots into the combined list at approximately the senior man on the 767. Their rational was that we were bringing over aircraft that were similar to the 767 so this is where we should start appearing on the list. If one accepts this rational for integration, then it would also be fair to come up from the bottom to the most junior man on the 727 and integrate all Pan Am airmen into the list between the most senior 767 airman and the most junior 727 airman, since we did not bring any airplane over smaller than a 727 - (Delta had DC-9's). Not so. A ratio was established at 1:11 starting at the 767 senior captain until reaching to co-pilots where it reverted to 1:13 until all airman were inserted into the list. But guess what? Delta ran out of Delta pilots. So what Delta flight operations management did is insert 13 X's into the list after the last Delta pilot then a Pan Am pilot, another 13 X's - a Pan Am pilot until finally all Pan Am pilots were accounted for as follows:
Last Delta Pilot
Pan Am Pilot


BOHICA!!!! Bend Over Here It Comes Again

Keenster

tsquare

Are you going to post this on every thread? Just curious. And yes is was an acquisition...

Carl Spackler

Hey Tsquare,

This is the first I have read of this. It's been said by MANY DAL pilots on this thread that: "we've done ratios before here at Delta with Pan Am and Western pilots and there were no complaints. Why are you NWA guys so bent out of shape?" I read this or something similar over and over again since I started this thread. This historical perspective is useful. It appears that the oft stated opinion of no complaints from Pan Am or Western is not supported by the facts.

Carl

Scoop

[quote=keenster;382061]

What do you think about this???? And we are supposed to believe that they want to give us a fair deal!!!!

This is a very good explanation of what happened to PAA pilots SLI with DAL. Lessons to be learned ,as you "watch their feet"...

Carl and Keenster,
Assuming everything in your post was 100% correct, which I seriously doubt, I would still say the Pan Am guys who came over to DAL did better then the Republic guys at NW. After all, they were not locked out of widebodies for decades. And I have flown with some Pan Am guys and they didn't seem to share the attitude of the individual you reference above. Rember guys, two sides to every story.
Scoop

Carl Spackler

[quote=Scoop;382372]Scoop,

I agree that there are two sides to every story. My point is that in the beginning of this thread, there was NO other side. DAL pilots were speaking for Pan Am and Western pilots and stating that there were no complaints. I found that hard to believe, but I had nothing substantive to the contrary. Now I do. Now we all do. It's good perspective.

Carl

Flare Armed

I've flown with both Western and Pan Am pilots and they all have their issues with how they were integrated...when you ask them about it. What I have not seen, however, is a bunch of pent up anger and frustration that is still with them all these years later. I've also flown with Delta guys that didn't like what happened to THEM as a result of the Western merger. In short, its typical....nobody was happy about how the integrations took place.

So "no complaints" is probably a bit optimistic, I don't see anyone ranting and raving about it either.

finis72

Merge any 2 lists and there will always be complaints,somebody always thinks they got screwed because we all look at with our own numero uno in mind.

Carl Spackler

I agree with you, but that's not the point. The point was that many DAL folks on this thread specifically said there were NO COMPLAINTS at Delta and used that as proof that DALPA never tried to hurt anyone historically and are not trying to hurt NWA now. This letter shines a different light on that thesis.

Carl

sailingfun

A early out program is normally very expensive. It certainly does not save money for the company. Pilots pay for the most part is based on seat position and aircraft type. If you early out a 747 CA you replace him with a guy making the exact same pay. No cost savings however a increase in training costs. Add in the cost to buy out the other pilot and it becomes a large financial burden. The Delta pilots who left did not get a early out program. They simply retired early. NWA pilots have the same option however I understand they can't get a lump of they go early only a annuity.

Carl Spackler

If NWA pilots go early, we don't get a lump sum - and we never have an annuity option except for a small portion of former Republic pilots that have a partial annuity. You can get a lump sum only for that small portion of funds that exceed the TEFRA limits and that is only available to you if you stay until age 60.

As far as an early out program being costly, you're exactly right. The NWA early out program didn't last very long at all before NWA stopped offering it.

Carl