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Old 05-20-2008, 01:36 PM   #361  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
You didn't call us cowardly, it was that Veritas In Defense of the Truth #2008-02 posted by acl65pilot.

The use of that word was a terrible mistake by DALPA. NWA pilots endured many strikes and lost a ton of income to hold the line against a management that continually wanted unwarranted salary cuts. NWA pilots are anything but cowardly, and anyone with the slightest knowledge of history knows it. If that document is real, DALPA needs to apologize for the use of that word immediately. DALPA may have just lost me completely.

I'm not on the MEC or LEC, just a line puke.

Carl
Oh no!!!! we've lost Carl! What are we going to do without his sage like logic and laser sharp reading comprehension.

Carl,

I'm beginning to think you either are or should be on the NW MEC yourself. Nowhere in that document does it state that NWA pilots are cowardly. Nowhere. Yet your entire body of response is based on righteous indignation that it did.

If the events occurred as I saw them and as described by DALPA and the NW MEC put out the communication that they did what exactly was DAPLA supposed to do? Allow everyone to think that DALPA used some untoward tactic to bar NW pilots from the hearing when the opposite is true?

Someone should post the first Veritas and let ole' Carl chew on that one. If history is any guide I can only assume he'll fire off post after post crying about how DALPA accused the NW pilots of being responsible for Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance when nothing of the sort appears in the text.
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:42 PM   #362  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
DALPA may have just lost me completely.
I'm not sure you've ever posted anything that would lead one to believe you have ever been in the least bit open-minded toward this merger. So I'm afraid I can't lose too much sleep over your assertion that you are suddenly and reluctantly "lost completely".
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:54 PM   #363  
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Carl, It is a bit hard to tell fact from fiction in all this. I am Delta pilot who was picked up on one of the mergers. I have no problem with how Delta treated us in the merger. There are always those that are ****ed off after a merger. Overall Delta's mergers have had far less issues and problems then almost any other airline. To contrast the Delta-Western merger with the NWA-Republic merger would be like comparing a BB gun to a Howitzer. As far as he said she said I am inclined to go with Delta when looking at the facts and when talking with pilots who are friends at NWA. They even realize what has happened. Sometimes you have to read between the lines. One simple example is the statements about what Delta opened for. From day one it was stated that it was a straight ratio keeping every pilot about in their pre merger position. It was only a opening position but one that on one would argue was a unreasonable opening position to start from. NWA pilots were fed stories that this was not the opener and posted those stories in several forums. Finally in one of NWA's just the facts they admitted that the Delta opener was just what we had posted. Strangely however to this day they have not published their own opener.
The NWA mec has stated over and over again that Delta walked away from negotiations. What they don't mention is what caused us to walk away. NWA's committee came to DALPA with a proposal. We accepted it in principle and it looked like a agreement might be at hand. Then in a two day period they reverse their own proposal and come back with something far worse for Delta pilots. In the middle of all this your committee chairman was either fired or quit for reasons unknown. Working in the background you had factions observing and advising the committee. These observers appeared to be factions for red book or green book pilots and had different views on how the list should be merged. Makes it a bit tough on the Delta side when the NWA side does not have a uniform position and reputes their own position. Who were these observers and why where they there? Please tell us!
Then we had LOA 19. The NWA MEC claims they were blindsided by the agreement and had no idea that talks were going on. I am a lowly line puke and I knew talks were going on. The press had picked up and published stories that talks were ongoing. You had a voting rep on the BOD who had to know talks were going on. If you really were blindsided it could only be because of incompetence somewhere. Oh and you did show up for the process just 7 days late where you asssumed there would be a extension of management deadline to annouce the merger. Sadly there was no extension this time. Sounds like a bad assumption was made.
If the Delta pilots are so one sided how is it that the joint contract agreement that was reached gave 3 out of every 4 dollars to the smaller NWA pilot group? Kind of staggering numbers. That ratio does not include the ongoing funding requirements of the frozen NWA plan were every dollar goes to the NWA pilots. This is estimated at 25 to 30 million dollars a year but could go far higher depending on investment returns.
In the end we both lost by not reaching a agreement however NWA lost far more. It is unlikely the coming arbitration will stray to far from Dalpa last table position. It might be a bit better for NWA or it might be a bit better for Delta however in the end will be close. Even if it goes well for NWA the money lost from the joint contract will never be offset by the potentional gains in seniority. The time value of money makes this huge. I know for a fact some NWA pilots understand this and have run numbers. They are asking their MEC for answers about what happened. Hopefully they will get some response.
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:02 PM   #364  
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If the Delta pilots are so one sided how is it that the joint contract agreement that was reached gave 3 out of every 4 dollars to the smaller NWA pilot group.
Bingo. Maybe we DAL guys should be thanking NALPA for rejecting that one-sided windfall! Unfortunately, it's already cost us both a whole lot of money.
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Old 05-20-2008, 03:02 PM   #365  
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Take a look at our stock prices. The hedge funds and investment banks are getting killed by their investments in our stocks. There is virtually no hope for them to realize anything but big losses. In my opinion, the hedge funds have lost all of their ability to pressure Anderson and Steenland. And while I never assumed any hedge fund would care what I think, I do think there is a fundamental disrespect for what NWA brings to the merger. It shows over and over again on these forums and in what I read from both DALPA and NWALPA. I simply think another corporate combination would be better for NWA. Delta's stock is sinking so fast, you may not be in a position to acquire anybody with a stock swap.

Not at all worried about a Carl Icahn style break up. The only way that could happen is if we were in a liquidation situation. We have as much unrestricted cash as Delta and we are much smaller with lower costs. There will be many other airline liquidations before NWA gets there, and given the numbers, Delta would go before NWA.

Carl
Carl,

I'm implying ALL airlines are at risk of being piecemealed. DAL and NWA have breakup values of nearly $10 billion individually. If you don't think those are compelling numbers when the street values are a quarter of that than I don't know what to say. My point is that the merger may be in both our interests as the combined carrier with greater liquidity, leverage, market value, and resources may be able to better withstand a break up style environment. Look at Pan Am. Broken up. Only certain pilots went to UAL and DAL. None of us would benefit from this.
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Old 05-20-2008, 03:49 PM   #366  
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Well said, DAL. It is quite true that as one company it is a lot harder for these hedge funds to have their way with the BOD. We will be too big to throw around as easily.
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Old 05-20-2008, 03:54 PM   #367  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
Carl, It is a bit hard to tell fact from fiction in all this. I am Delta pilot who was picked up on one of the mergers. I have no problem with how Delta treated us in the merger. There are always those that are ****ed off after a merger. Overall Delta's mergers have had far less issues and problems then almost any other airline. To contrast the Delta-Western merger with the NWA-Republic merger would be like comparing a BB gun to a Howitzer. As far as he said she said I am inclined to go with Delta when looking at the facts and when talking with pilots who are friends at NWA. They even realize what has happened. Sometimes you have to read between the lines. One simple example is the statements about what Delta opened for. From day one it was stated that it was a straight ratio keeping every pilot about in their pre merger position. It was only a opening position but one that on one would argue was a unreasonable opening position to start from. NWA pilots were fed stories that this was not the opener and posted those stories in several forums. Finally in one of NWA's just the facts they admitted that the Delta opener was just what we had posted. Strangely however to this day they have not published their own opener.
The NWA mec has stated over and over again that Delta walked away from negotiations. What they don't mention is what caused us to walk away. NWA's committee came to DALPA with a proposal. We accepted it in principle and it looked like a agreement might be at hand. Then in a two day period they reverse their own proposal and come back with something far worse for Delta pilots. In the middle of all this your committee chairman was either fired or quit for reasons unknown. Working in the background you had factions observing and advising the committee. These observers appeared to be factions for red book or green book pilots and had different views on how the list should be merged. Makes it a bit tough on the Delta side when the NWA side does not have a uniform position and reputes their own position. Who were these observers and why where they there? Please tell us!
Then we had LOA 19. The NWA MEC claims they were blindsided by the agreement and had no idea that talks were going on. I am a lowly line puke and I knew talks were going on. The press had picked up and published stories that talks were ongoing. You had a voting rep on the BOD who had to know talks were going on. If you really were blindsided it could only be because of incompetence somewhere. Oh and you did show up for the process just 7 days late where you asssumed there would be a extension of management deadline to annouce the merger. Sadly there was no extension this time. Sounds like a bad assumption was made.
If the Delta pilots are so one sided how is it that the joint contract agreement that was reached gave 3 out of every 4 dollars to the smaller NWA pilot group? Kind of staggering numbers. That ratio does not include the ongoing funding requirements of the frozen NWA plan were every dollar goes to the NWA pilots. This is estimated at 25 to 30 million dollars a year but could go far higher depending on investment returns.
In the end we both lost by not reaching a agreement however NWA lost far more. It is unlikely the coming arbitration will stray to far from Dalpa last table position. It might be a bit better for NWA or it might be a bit better for Delta however in the end will be close. Even if it goes well for NWA the money lost from the joint contract will never be offset by the potentional gains in seniority. The time value of money makes this huge. I know for a fact some NWA pilots understand this and have run numbers. They are asking their MEC for answers about what happened. Hopefully they will get some response.
I won't waste everyone's time going over point by point here, but suffice it to say that nearly every one of your assertions are just your opinions. They are what you perceive as correct from what you have heard. None of the numbers/opinions you state are anything that will phase the average NWA pilot. Only facts will work and we are in an environment where actual facts are difficult to find.

Carl
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:08 PM   #368  
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Carl,

I'm implying ALL airlines are at risk of being piecemealed. DAL and NWA have breakup values of nearly $10 billion individually. If you don't think those are compelling numbers when the street values are a quarter of that than I don't know what to say. My point is that the merger may be in both our interests as the combined carrier with greater liquidity, leverage, market value, and resources may be able to better withstand a break up style environment. Look at Pan Am. Broken up. Only certain pilots went to UAL and DAL. None of us would benefit from this.
10 billion in break up value is a pipe-dream in my opinion. These assets require the burning of fuel at nearly $130 a barrel, thus funding for such an adventure would be extremely difficult to find in this zero credit environment.

I think this merger is very much in the interest of DAL. Adding Pacific routes and 3.5 billion in cash is absolutely critical for DAL, but not for NWA. We are smaller yet we have equal unrestricted cash. Since our burn rate is much lower than most, NWA will be able to outlast most airlines if the game turns into one of endurance. If DALPA really wishes for the Pacific routes and cash with the fewest pilots possible, this merger is definitely NOT in the interest of NWA pilots. With the new legislation preventing unfair SLI's, American might even be a better option for NWA pilots. A lot of this will depend on the ACTIONS of DALPA going forward - we've all had enough of talking.

I think the biggest hurdle to this merger is the current DAL stock price. Since this is a no cash/stock swap deal, the lower DAL's stock price, the lower the value for NWA shareholders' investment. This could rapidly get to the point where NWA shareholders vote NO on the merger. This would require DAL to add cash to the transaction, and they simply can't afford that right now.

I think this deal is in increasing danger. Just my opinion.

Carl
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:11 PM   #369  
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Well said, DAL. It is quite true that as one company it is a lot harder for these hedge funds to have their way with the BOD. We will be too big to throw around as easily.
Actually, that is not at all true. When it comes to break-up danger, the bigger you are the more compelling the case to break up the parts. If you're really concerned about a break-up, then you need to hope for staying independent and small.

Carl
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:19 PM   #370  
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Actually, that is not at all true. When it comes to break-up danger, the bigger you are the more compelling the case to break up the parts. If you're really concerned about a break-up, then you need to hope for staying independent and small.

Carl
I apologize for insinuating that you were a NALPA goon. It's clear that you're a hedge fund plant on this forum. My compliments on not being discovered until now.

Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 05-20-2008 at 04:57 PM.
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