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Old 04-16-2008, 03:41 PM   #81  
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Actually all anyone needs to do is the math.... The ratio is 1 NWA to 1.4 DAL (I believe this is correct). So if you take a NWA pilots senortiy number he can calculate his combined relative senority number.
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Old 04-16-2008, 03:54 PM   #82  
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Originally Posted by NWA320pilot View Post
Actually all anyone needs to do is the math.... The ratio is 1 NWA to 1.4 DAL (I believe this is correct). So if you take a NWA pilots senortiy number he can calculate his combined relative senority number.
NWA320,

I think where we raise eyebrows is when we attempt to find out what relative seniority position can hold what aircraft at the different airlines.
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Old 04-16-2008, 04:05 PM   #83  
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Mako-
I'm dead serious. The MECs do not want anything resembling "negotiating" to take place outside their strict control. They would crush any attempt.

If you ask me we could set up a website for DAL and NWA pilots only. We upload both lists and all the relevant age and hire date and base and airplane and retirement info and any other information required. We let the line pilots propose solutions and argue and debate and persuade and this thing could be solved in a week. We'd have a list.
Check...frustrations sometimes get the better of me!!

Thanks, and you pose an interesting idea....
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Old 04-16-2008, 04:10 PM   #84  
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You will be thrown out of the union in disgrace. Never to be allowed to fly for an ALPA carrier again. You will then be hired by a Non-ALPA carrier (UPS/American/Southwest) and make 1 million dollars more over the course of your career.
Ok, I'm on it........
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Old 04-16-2008, 04:10 PM   #85  
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To the Delta guys, I'm reposting something that was said here earlier because it is exactly correct and could be quite illustrative:

"Just remember that at NWA the dominant political party in the seniority food fight are narrow body FO's they control the roll call vote on the MEC. So before blaming the senior end of the pilot group remember that the tyrrany of the majority is in effect, and is likely reflected in the NWA MEC stated positions."Democracy like sausage making does not bear close scrutiny well"

Our MEC is completely controlled by the bottom half of the seniority list at NWA. Mako's earlier post demonstrates some of the frustration we more senior pilots feel. The follow on DC plan has been taken by the MEC from the top half of the seniority list, and given to the bottom half of the seniority list to even out everyone's retirements. Then someone like Mako uses the word Greedy...apparently he is still unhappy.

Our MEC's total opposition to this merger must have something to do with a problem that will occur to the bottom half of the NWA list. I've just gotten a ton of emails from our LEC and one is talking about the SLI and why DAL's version was rejected. I'll post my findings here shortly.

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Old 04-16-2008, 04:13 PM   #86  
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Well.........I have a NWA and a DAL seniority list, what can stop us from putting the lists together by relative seniority and posting the results minus names and any other revealing info about individuals?

We could do it by DOH as well and compare the ramifications of the two methods.
Here is the problem with Date of Hire:

DOH is only relative to your current employer. In the business world DOH from a previous employer has no relevance to your newest employer. On the day that the two airlines become one global airline officially we will all have a new DOH with that respective company. Now I am not saying anyone will loose their respective longevity towards benefits or anything else, but just trying to debunk the myth that your DOH at airline "ABC" and my DOH and airline "DEF" has any merit or validity at new airline "ABCDEF".

For this reason I think that relative seniority integration is the appropriate choice. We could always fall back to ALPA membership number and base all the seniority on how long you have been a member at ALPA but that will fly like a lead turd. I am trying to see why everyone is all bent out of shape about being integrated on a list where a pilot hired by airline ABC in 1989 is one number junior to a pilot hired by airline DEF in 1995 if both pilots' relative senoirity in the combined airline has them within 1 to 2 % of senoirity of their "PREVIOUS" Airline employer?

I think its moronic for people to assume that your years of experience by virtue of your DOH grant you the ability to jump ahead in seniority of people at another airline just because that person started at their company 6 years after you did.

If you truly believe that then why doesn't every MEC make it a National issue that every regional pilot who gets hired (by a new company!!!!) by a legacy airline, at LCC airline, or another regoinal airline; that his years of experience in the National Airspace system flying those "D*mn RJ's" around at his previous employer are credited to him on the new airline's seniority list. I mean they are clogging up airports and airspace all over the USA with those small jets and turbo props in the same places all us "Big Boys and our Toys" go so why not? You know why that doesn't happen? Because we sold that load of crap down the river years ago believing management's argument that first year pilots should receive significantly lower wages than their counterparts because we (the airline) cannot use them to create revenue for several months because we have to train them to fly our way and our planes. This is the only business in the world where an individual has to take a significant pay cut his first year to be promoted to the real airline jobs and the "big money". Only in the airlines industry does one get "promoted" to the big company and take a paycut. While their may be some, I doubt the number is significant, of people that take paycuts to get promoted in the business world.

I am amazed by the hiprocacy and just plain ignorance on the part of many people on this board who want to complain about "their seniority" and what they are losing without taking time to attempt to completely comprehend any and all proposals. Many of you need to stop pontificating, put down the keyboard and wait patiently to see exactly what is being offered and what the proposals are. Then after the facts are known let's get debate those facts and see what we can do to reach a compromise. What a novel idea.

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Old 04-16-2008, 04:27 PM   #87  
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Okay...this is from the NWA MEC just yesterday. It's the first small piece of concrete information I've seen thus far:

The first two negotiations took place in New York City with oil below $90 per barrel. While we achieved agreement on a joint contract and equity and made progress on a seniority list, we did not achieve an equitable seniority list. The third negotiation took place in Washington, D.C., and while more progress was made on seniority, a seniority list agreement was not reached.
The seniority negotiations broke down over the Delta pilot leadership’s desire to include aircraft options, not just orders, in the seniority integration ratio. We were not willing to adjust the seniority integration ratio in favor of Delta pilots based on options, particularly when such options were unlikely to be exercised, other than as replacement aircraft, in the worsening economic environment. There were additional problems concerning calculation of the number of active pilots at each carrier and staffing assumptions for the future. The resulting difference in our respective positions on a ratio was substantial. The actual breakdown occurred when, in response to my suggestion that we both compromise and bring that to our respective MECs for their consideration, we were advised that the Delta pilot group could not move off their last ratio proposal.

This is fascinating. If it is true, it looks like the NWA position moved completely off of DOH. The disagreement is now one concept of a ratio versus another concept of ratio. As far as wanting aircraft options included in the formula for ratio construction, that will be a very difficult sell in arbitration. In my 3 airline career I've been involved in 3 mergers. In all of those cases the arbitrator not only refused to acknowledge options, but refused all firm orders as well. A snapshot was taken of the ACTUAL AIRCRAFT on the property on the date of "constructive notice" (in our case that will be April 14, 2009). From that snapshot, DOH/Ratios/Fences were constructed. Who knows what an arbitrator will do today, but that is the history of my merger involvement.

Carl
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Old 04-16-2008, 04:30 PM   #88  
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Then someone like Mako uses the word Greedy...apparently he is still unhappy.
Carl
Carl, sorry that you missed my point. Actually, I'm tickled with my DC, I just get tired of hearing guys at your seniority complaining about getting "screwed". We ALL have been screwed!! I'm just reporting what I've personally heard and been told.. Like I said, hope you aren't one of those guys...

Cheers,
Mako
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Old 04-16-2008, 05:42 PM   #89  
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I think where we raise eyebrows is when we attempt to find out what relative seniority position can hold what aircraft at the different airlines.
NewKnow,

Here's some info for you if you want it. These are the junior most guys in each aircraft for the projected category list for September 08. Hire dates up to 02/04/08 included.

(Captain then First Officer and then what top % each is)

ATL
777 - 1236 & 6247 - 17 & 87
765 - 2032 & 6468 - 28 & 90
7ER - 3012 & 7163 - 42 & 99
767 - 3617 & 7052 - 50 & 98
73N - 3817 & 6950 - 53 & 96
M88 - 5423 & 7212 - 75 & 100

NYC
777 - 1662 & 6088 - 23 & 84
7ER - 3674 & 7207 - 51 & 100
73N - 4693 & 7157 - 65 & 99
M88 - 6040 & 7211 - 84 & 100

LAX
7ER - 3204 & 6964 - 44 & 97
767 - 3845 & 7209 - 53 & 100
73N - 4050 & 7197 - 56 & 100

SLC
767 - 2912 & 7206 - 40 & 100
73N - 3476 & 6998 - 48 & 97
M88 - 4138 & 7204 - 57 & 100

CVG
767 - 3043 & 7167 - 42 & 99
73N - 3446 & 7196 - 48 & 100
M88 - 3825 & 7201 - 53 & 100

You got numbers for the NWA side of the family?

Last edited by MoonShot; 04-16-2008 at 06:03 PM. Reason: Added % of list for each seat
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:20 PM   #90  
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Originally Posted by Selcall View Post
I think its moronic for people to assume that your years of experience by virtue of your DOH grant you the ability to jump ahead in seniority of people at another airline just because that person started at their company 6 years after you did.

I am amazed by the hiprocacy and just plain ignorance on the part of many people on this board who want to complain about "their seniority" and what they are losing without taking time to attempt to completely comprehend any and all proposals. Many of you need to stop pontificating, put down the keyboard and wait patiently to see exactly what is being offered and what the proposals are. Then after the facts are known let's get debate those facts and see what we can do to reach a compromise. What a novel idea.
Easy to say when you are on That side of the table!
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