NWA/DELTA Roadshows
05-06-2008, 07:51 AM
#21
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Originally Posted by DAWGS
NWA MEC Communications:
A relative seniority list that looks great graphically on the day after the merger begs some questions: are the pilot demographics so perfectly matched that, as future attrition occurs, the list will continue to look great?
Therein lies the reason it seems the list negotiation wasn't successful. As a junior Delta pilot, I would like to see the NW side acknowledge all of the FUTURE Delta pilots retiring in greater numbers just after the NW exodus. If NW wants to receive credit, we should as well. The only way I see around it is some fluid system of awarding seniority credit when NW pilots retire vs DL pilots retiring to their original respective pilots. I think a list with relative seniority and this credit to its pilots would be fair. I think it would have to continue till the last pilot on either list retires that is on the list today. I think that would probably stretch out to almost 40 years. We have some pretty young new hires. I mean if we want to make it completely fair, right?? Having said that I think it would be divisive. You would be forever tied to the pre-merged group. And as the MEC statement above states, "as future attrition occurs, will the list continue to look great? Well it would depend on what side you were on and what year it is. I know DL has many more retiring over my career.
Best of luck to us all
Dawgs
A relative seniority list that looks great graphically on the day after the merger begs some questions: are the pilot demographics so perfectly matched that, as future attrition occurs, the list will continue to look great?
Therein lies the reason it seems the list negotiation wasn't successful. As a junior Delta pilot, I would like to see the NW side acknowledge all of the FUTURE Delta pilots retiring in greater numbers just after the NW exodus. If NW wants to receive credit, we should as well. The only way I see around it is some fluid system of awarding seniority credit when NW pilots retire vs DL pilots retiring to their original respective pilots. I think a list with relative seniority and this credit to its pilots would be fair. I think it would have to continue till the last pilot on either list retires that is on the list today. I think that would probably stretch out to almost 40 years. We have some pretty young new hires. I mean if we want to make it completely fair, right?? Having said that I think it would be divisive. You would be forever tied to the pre-merged group. And as the MEC statement above states, "as future attrition occurs, will the list continue to look great? Well it would depend on what side you were on and what year it is. I know DL has many more retiring over my career.
Best of luck to us all
Dawgs
Yes, I agree this list would have to be redone, probably once a month or how ever often you bid for a new seat, till ALL of us premergers are gone. Should be real easy to do in this computer age.
Ferd
05-06-2008, 08:19 AM
#22
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 767ER Captain
Posts: 14
35 years...
'Yes, I agree this list would have to be redone, probably once a month or how ever often you bid for a new seat, till ALL of us premergers are gone. Should be real easy to do in this computer age.'
Jeez Ferd, everybody's a 'premerger'! That would take 35 years. Don't you guys hate the red book/green book concept that just expired at NWA? And what about the DC9's that retire. Not gonna happen at a 1 for 1 ratio with the 787 I think. And if the 'new Delta' pays for the 787s, shouldn't the 'new Delta pilots, (everyone), fly them? Do we furlough according to the 'premerger pilot list'? I don't want a premerge nwa flying my premerge dal aicraft when he runs out of premerge nwa aircraft, and you surely wouldn't want it the other way either. I think if one group negotiates the 1st 500 retirements on their aircraft, they get the 1st 500 furloughs on that equipment as well. And what about the next bankruptcy/merger? Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying, which is entirely possible!
Jeez Ferd, everybody's a 'premerger'! That would take 35 years. Don't you guys hate the red book/green book concept that just expired at NWA? And what about the DC9's that retire. Not gonna happen at a 1 for 1 ratio with the 787 I think. And if the 'new Delta' pays for the 787s, shouldn't the 'new Delta pilots, (everyone), fly them? Do we furlough according to the 'premerger pilot list'? I don't want a premerge nwa flying my premerge dal aicraft when he runs out of premerge nwa aircraft, and you surely wouldn't want it the other way either. I think if one group negotiates the 1st 500 retirements on their aircraft, they get the 1st 500 furloughs on that equipment as well. And what about the next bankruptcy/merger? Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying, which is entirely possible!
05-06-2008, 08:41 AM
#23
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Ferd149
Great post, and I agree. Start with a RS list then manage it by the dynamic list concept, as that solves the retirment issue. The beauty of the dynamic list, that we like, is when an old fart NWA guy retires, younger NWA guys move up to his old spot and so on down the list. Conversly, when an old Delta guy retires (and you have them too, just not as many in the near term) younger Delta guys move up. Oh, and oh by the way....no bump no flush is a given.
Yes, I agree this list would have to be redone, probably once a month or how ever often you bid for a new seat, till ALL of us premergers are gone. Should be real easy to do in this computer age.
Ferd
Yes, I agree this list would have to be redone, probably once a month or how ever often you bid for a new seat, till ALL of us premergers are gone. Should be real easy to do in this computer age.
Ferd
05-06-2008, 09:42 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Yeah, I think you misunderstand. My poor writing skills, a product of a public school education :-)
I'm on a trip again trying to do this with fat thumbs on a phone. I'll try to do better on a hotel computer in the next few days.
Cheers,
Ferd
I'm on a trip again trying to do this with fat thumbs on a phone. I'll try to do better on a hotel computer in the next few days.
Cheers,
Ferd
05-06-2008, 10:08 AM
#26
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Originally Posted by Widebody
And if the 'new Delta' pays for the 787s, shouldn't the 'new Delta pilots, (everyone), fly them?
[/I]
[/I]
1. No fences so yes you should bid it.
2. And where I misunderstand you, WE will be Delta as we bring as much or more cash to this dance. I'm sure you aren't implying you get everything post merger as I'm not a Delta guy.
3. Ok, I don't have a 3.
Cheers,
Ferd
05-06-2008, 10:15 AM
#27
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spliff
It's basically the same as a slotted list, right? Where Seniority Number ABC will always have an NWA guy in it, and Number ABC+1 will always have a DAL guy? That will be a tough sell...
delta 3. But, more later. This is almost too hard to do on a phone and I gotta get on a commuter flight.
Seeeeee yaaaaaaaa,
Ferd
Last edited by Ferd149; 05-06-2008 at 10:22 AM.
05-06-2008, 11:42 AM
#28
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 767ER Captain
Posts: 14
Don't confuse me with the facts...
Ferd, I'm in way over my head. What I see is the NWA pilots 'fencing' themselves into a pool of aircraft that will diminish over time. Instead of enjoying the spoils of this debacle, you'll be restricted by your need to ride that wave of retirements that may not happen for 6 years. How many of NWA's 747s, 330s, and DC9s will be left? Do you really want to be a DC9 Captain? Maybe you should fly with me to Dublin and have a Guiness at O'Donohues before you answer.
You bring much to the table. No argument here. I'm willing to share. ExAF said in his post that your group is galvanized, ready to fight the enemy. Check your target...
You bring much to the table. No argument here. I'm willing to share. ExAF said in his post that your group is galvanized, ready to fight the enemy. Check your target...
05-06-2008, 12:26 PM
#29
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
[quote]Jeez Ferd, everybody's a 'premerger'! That would take 35 years. Don't you guys hate the red book/green book concept that just expired at NWA? And what about the DC9's that retire. Not gonna happen at a 1 for 1 ratio with the 787 I think. And if the 'new Delta' pays for the 787s, shouldn't the 'new Delta pilots, (everyone), fly them? Do we furlough according to the 'premerger pilot list'? I don't want a premerge nwa flying my premerge dal aicraft when he runs out of premerge nwa aircraft, and you surely wouldn't want it the other way either. I think if one group negotiates the 1st 500 retirements on their aircraft, they get the 1st 500 furloughs on that equipment as well. And what about the next bankruptcy/merger? Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying, which is entirely possible![quote]
Widebody,
You bring up a lot of good points that our negotiators I think could work out. The -9's will have to be replaced. We know that. If they decide not to replace them and instead outsource them, then what? I think at DCC a snapshot could be taken of both fleets with orders/options with language to prevent what could be a windfall for either side. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I do think a fluid list if done right could be a very fair way to go and in fact be fairly predictable. As I said, it would be divisive, but I think there is probably going to be some divisiveness anyways. I don't think you would have a red/green issue because people could bid what their seniority allows. All of this may be a moot point anyway if oil continues its climb to what some say is $200 in short order.
Dawgs
Widebody,
You bring up a lot of good points that our negotiators I think could work out. The -9's will have to be replaced. We know that. If they decide not to replace them and instead outsource them, then what? I think at DCC a snapshot could be taken of both fleets with orders/options with language to prevent what could be a windfall for either side. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I do think a fluid list if done right could be a very fair way to go and in fact be fairly predictable. As I said, it would be divisive, but I think there is probably going to be some divisiveness anyways. I don't think you would have a red/green issue because people could bid what their seniority allows. All of this may be a moot point anyway if oil continues its climb to what some say is $200 in short order.
Dawgs
05-06-2008, 01:44 PM
#30
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
[quote=DAWGS;380253]
The -9's will have to be replaced. We know that. If they decide not to replace them and instead outsource them, then what?
Dawgs
Ahhh,
You fight the outsourcing of mainline flying. That's what.
The -9's will have to be replaced. We know that. If they decide not to replace them and instead outsource them, then what?
Dawgs
Ahhh,
You fight the outsourcing of mainline flying. That's what.
