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Old 10-07-2008, 07:30 PM   #51  
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The DAL proposed "fence":

<EXCERPT>

Preferential Bidding Period (PBP) for the Protection of Pre-Merger Large Wide Body Aircraft and Large Wide Body Growth Expectations

a. In the bid period flowing issuance of SOC, the number of current and awarded Captain positions on the following aircraft will be calculated:

(i) For pre-merger DAL pilots - B-777 (number=D)
(ii) For pre-merger NWA pilots - B-787 (number=N)

b. Except as provided in e. below, during the PBP, pre-merger NWA pilots will have priority in bidding for the Captain positions on the B-787, B747-400 and the B-747-200.

c. Except as provided in e. below, during the PBP, pre-merger DAL pilots will have priority in bidding for the Captain positions on the B-777 and the B-767-400.

<END OF EXCERPT>

number=N a transparent attempt to appear fair when talking about Large Wide Body Growth Expectations. Pretty easy to figure out that N will be a very small number due to production delays, even if SOC takes 18 months.

Did you notice that the DAL proposal specifically does not mention the A-330? This is the aircraft already on NW property in a quantity of 34 and being flown to 14 international destinations. Two thirds of the A-330s carry more than the 777 and it will pay the same as a 767-400. Information from management road shows at both DAL and NWA indicate that the A-330 will be redeployed to fly Latin America/South America and Western Europe. I am at a loss how they expect to justify this deliberate omission from the fence language.

Last edited by Nosmo King; 10-07-2008 at 07:32 PM. Reason: Spelling Errors
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Old 10-07-2008, 07:35 PM   #52  
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FWIW--Whatever stance you take, ALL hires After 2001 (2002 and on) should have been DOH. I think it is crazy that the most junior pilot at DAL jumps ahead of pilots hired DEC 2000 at NWA. That is not even close to reasonable. How can you tell me that DAL would not have furloughed or parked more planes. I hope the panel has more common sense then the person that put this list together.

AV8ER13,
I was hired before the period you mention but I disagree with you. Should a NW guy who was hired in 2000 and has maybe 500 NW Pilots behind him have 2000 DAL pilots put below him just because NW hired a lot less since 2000? This is the other side of the coin. Something close to this would result from DOH. Under DOH a NW pilot hired on the end of the last last cycle with maybe a few hundred pilots below him would now have over a thousand DAL pilots below him. The NW side is parking a lot of aircraft and has only 17 787's coming, and the delivery date keeps getting pushed back. DAL is currently short pilots - our MEC is allowing MD-88 Pilots to fly extra while NW has started furlough mitigation. All of these factors (and a lot that your side will bring up) come into play, not just DOH. Who knows what the three wise men will decide - I for one would prefer a negotiated list.

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Old 10-07-2008, 07:39 PM   #53  
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Originally Posted by Nosmo King View Post
Did you notice that the DAL proposal specifically does not mention the A-330? This is the aircraft already on NW property in a quantity of 34 and being flown to 14 international destinations.
Did you notice that they didn't mention the 767-300ER also. An aircraft that is already at Delta in numbers larger than 34 and is being flown to more than 14 international destinations.
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Old 10-07-2008, 07:41 PM   #54  
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They do AV8ER, I really think they do. All 3 are very experienced judges. DAL's proposed list is the same methodology used with Pan Am and Western Airlines. Both were on the verge of liquidation, and DAL agreed to ratio these pilots into the seats of aircraft they brought to the merger at the expense of decades of Date of Hire. Given the state of their airlines being days away from liquidation, these pilots were probably grateful to have any job.

NWA is different; to wit:

NWA has a higher market capitalization than DAL, even though NWA is 2/3 the size of DAL.

NWA had higher earnings last quarter than DAL, and will have again this quarter soon to be announced.

NWA has an equal amount of unrestricted cash to that of DAL even though we are 2/3 the size of DAL.

And finally, our fleet mix is very comparable.

For these reasons, it would be historic in arbitrations if they were to agree on such a lopsided proposal. Just remember, if the DAL guys did NOT start with such an extreme proposal, their members would want their heads.

This is just early round negotiations. Inside, the arbitrators are probably just smiling and shaking their heads - just as they will after they hear our proposal.

Let not your heart be troubled.

Carl
Carl,
If the above counts in the SLI arbitration then how about the fact that furloughed NW guys are now getting credit for longevity. A NW guy who was furloughed for 3-4 years and maybe on 3-4 year pay immedialtely jumps to 7-8 year pay at a higher payrate. I don't feel too bad for those guys and maybe the three wise men when considering NW's financial prowess will also look at financial compensation of individual pilots. Anyway why rehash all this BS - lets talk about parade floats. And by the way as you now know I was not joking - although I wish I was.

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Old 10-07-2008, 07:57 PM   #55  
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Did you notice that they didn't mention the 767-300ER also. An aircraft that is already at Delta in numbers larger than 34 and is being flown to more than 14 international destinations.
It also pays less than every aircraft included in the DAL Fence proposal. The A330 pays the same as the 767-400 which is included.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:15 PM   #56  
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AV8ER13Should a NW guy who was hired in 2000 and has maybe 500 NW Pilots behind him have 2000 DAL pilots put below him just because NW hired a lot less since 2000? This is the other side of the coin. Something close to this would result from DOH.
You're correct, that would not be fair under DOH. Just as having the bottom 300 to 400 guys all be NWA when those pilots have years more working (non-furough) service than the new hire DAL pilots that would be senior to them under the DAL proposal that is now officially on the table.

I know it's difficult for anyone to criticize their own union's plan, but surely nobody can think this is fair. I have no problem with criticizing a DOH plan that would put a 1000 DAL pilots at the bottom, and 300 NWA pilots at the top.

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Old 10-07-2008, 08:20 PM   #57  
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Carl has been smoking some of that hybrid turf he concocted for golf courses.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:25 PM   #58  
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DAL's proposed list is the same methodology used with Pan Am and Western Airlines. Both were on the verge of liquidation, and DAL agreed to ratio these pilots into the seats of aircraft they brought to the merger at the expense of decades of Date of Hire. Given the state of their airlines being days away from liquidation, these pilots were probably grateful to have any job
Carl, not quite right on the part of WAL, they were no where near bankruptcy, let alone liquidation. They were horribly compensated though,-- in 1986, the only position at WAL that paid more than DL 727 engineers, DC-9 and 737 copilots (a-scale) ..was their DC-10 captains! Every other position at DL from 727copilot thru L-1011 captain (including DC-8 and L-1011 engineer paid as much or (way) more than their highest position. Nevertheless, their DC-10 captains were slotted in with our L-1011 captains, their 727's with ours, etc. They did not have a 76/75 nor a DC-8 category, nor any stand-alone expectation of one, and the slotting reflected that. Within 2 years, WAL pilots were at parity making 30-50% more flying not only the same equipment they would have as a stand -alone, but had many more aircraft and bases to choose from---no fences) Within a couple of years DAL had established a 75/76 base in LAX and SLC, L-1011's in PDX and LAX...all manned primarily by former WAL. DAL at the time of the merger had 4500 pilots, WAL had 1500. As for Pan Am, yes, they were lucky to have jobs.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:32 PM   #59  
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Carl has been smoking some of that hybrid turf he concocted for golf courses.
OK. Where am I going wrong?

Carl
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:33 PM   #60  
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You guys at the top have nothing to worry about. 1 or 2 or 5% is not going to kick you out of your seat. The real action is at the bottom. Our MEC proposal protects our (DAL) expectation of not being furloughed because the 9s get retired and replaced by Compass.

The post bankruptcy business plans presented in the first two days of hearings were most enlightening. One side was planning for growth and one side for contraction. The bottom of the list looks just about right.

Here's hoping that the combined company is as powerful and as vibrant as planned and hoped for so everyone rises.
There are ways of protecting the junior DAL pilots in the assumed event the DC9s are parked sooner than the 4+ years DAL has mentioned without stapling the bottom 10% of the NWA seniority list which will effect all 10% for the remainder of their careers. A fence could be established for X amount of years to protect those at DAL. By all means fence it up but short term protections dont compare to a Career of lost seniority because of a short term assumed issue.

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Trust me ACL, if the roles were reversed, you would see the unjustification of this immediately. You wouldn't need ask anyone: "how so?"

Carl

Exactly!!
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