Hearing Transcripts
 

Reviewed the day 1 SLI hearing transcripts - nothing very exciting. A quick summary follows:

Openers
DAL - We think we should use relative seniority.
NW - We think we should use DOH.

Senior Arbitrator - You guys are better off working this out yourselves.

Then the rest of the day was a DAL witness with no cross examination. He made a pretty solid case for NW's plans to shrink the airline and replace flying with Mesaba and DAL's growing mainline. Also made a case that the DC-9's and the 747-200's will be gone very quickly. Like I said no cross examination so it was pretty 1 sided and very boring.

Scoop

Anyone else see the proposed list from DALPA? I've got a bud who sent me the proposed list.

Yes, I have and it is ratio by equipment. Top to bottom.

Could u PM it to me?

Way to big to do that. It is 143 pages.
Give me your DOH and I can give you a wag.

I'm a 1983 hire at NWA and fly the 747-400. I have 1987 guys who fly the B-767-400 above me. I'm 10% from the top of the NWA list, and I'm 11.5% from the top of this proposed list.

Trying to be as objective as I can be, I think lumping 767-400 guys in with 747 and 777 guys is a fairly transparent attempt to get as many DAL guys on the top as possible. The 747's and 777's should have been combined as they pay the same. Adding the 767-400 into the mix, should not have been done.

Carl

The proposed list is about as lopsided as it could get.:cool:

I'm stunned is about the nicest thing I can say.

I've always joked that I just couldn't be junior to the guy I gave up my July '97 Delta interview to.........but there he is, the guy one number senior to me is a late Oct 97 hire. No good turn goes unpunished eh?

But, 404 NWA pilots junior to guys who started at Delta in May of THIS YEAR makes me ill.

Carl,

You have said in the past that you are around 500 on the list at NWA, are you red or green? If red, could you be holding your present category if all those ahead of you who wanted to be in your seat bid for it?

To make the blanket statement that a 767-400 is senior to you is jading the facts because we have 149 767-400 Captains that are senior to the most junior 777 Captain. The most senior 767-400 Captain is number 9 on our list. The distribution is not straight down the stovepipe. These two categories and the 767ER captains are mixed together simply because of what people bid. I got this off our Oct list, so look it up.

From reading the transcripts, I think that our side gathered all of our intl. captains and ratioed them against yours. So to state that 777 and 767-400 are set against 747 is false, at least if I am reading it right. It sounded like to me that we were counting our 777, 767-400, and 767ER/75 Intl. and we ratioed them against your 747-400, 747-200, A-330, and 757Intl (15% of total). If I am reading this wrong then I apologize, but that's the impression it left me with. The methodology was simply to ratio the amount of international captain positions against yours, and work down the list in the same manner.

I am a LAX 73Capt who has not posted here much because of all the needless arguing both our groups have done, so am trying to stick with numerical facts. I do not claim to like or dislike what our negotiators or yours have done and it is out of our hands now so do NOT want to simply argue for the hell of it. would like to see more factual exchanges across our lines as I think it will help later on.

I hear some of your side say we should be able to keep our seats but then they say DOH. Well, a LOT of us won't keep our seats under that scenario and your side thinks that's fair?

Would like to hear back from you because I have read your posts and you seem to try to be factual. I would also like to know from your side what you think is the future of the 9's and the freighters? I do NOT want these to go away and am not asking for that reason, just want to know from someone who has been there awhile that's all.

Hopefully the beers are plentiful and fights few after this is all over.

Cheers!!

not to mention 1999 hires behind 2007 newbies at Delta. :eek: what a joke!!

There would be no bump and flush so you wouldnt lose your seat. fwiw

Super,

You just got a PM.

Rudder,

If everyone senior to me at NWA bid the 747, I would not be able to hold the position.

My understanding was that DAL's proposal would be a ratio based on seat position and pay. With that in mind, I don't think the 767 belongs in with the 777 and 747. It should have been ratioed in with the A330 in order to not skew the ratio in a disproportionate manner, IMO. As far as senior people being on top of a lesser paying aircraft, it all evens out with people who bid for the max position they can hold even though they're junior.

I agree with you that straight DOH would not be fair. Just as this ratio would not be fair, although the conditions and restrictions do help protect people for a while. I'm sure our DOH proposal will contain similar protections against base loss and job loss.

I wouldn't mind having 1987 guys on top of me so much if there weren't so many of them that are younger than me. At NWA my retirement number would have been low double digits. Now there will be hundreds of pilots senior to me that are younger. That's the rub because even though your proposed list looks balanced now, over the next decade or so, the top of the list will be mostly DAL. If our DOH list happens, I'm guessing there will be similar inequities favoring NWA.

As far as the DC-9 and 747 freighters go, who knows. But my sense is that this credit crisis is real, and that it's not going away anytime soon. The aircraft that we both have on order may be undeliverable if the new Delta cannot obtain financing. This is happening at a time when oil is back below $90 per barrel again. This makes the DC-9 a perfect choice to bring out of the desert, because they cost nothing to obtain and the fuel cost differential is smaller.

Sorry for that lengthy post. Sheesh!

Carl

Yes. I was just looking at what the ratio did to me, but it gets far worse at the bottom 25%.

As I've said earlier, those DAL pilots that are extremely concerned about the DAL side having started negotiations in the middle ground...don't have anything to worry about. This position is every bit as extreme as a DOH list.

Carl

The last I heard, all of the DAL orders already had financing in place per Ed.

One you are assuming that everyone senior to you would bid off the 777. Wrong assumption.

Two, I would be put in with the late 99 hires, at about the same percentage. I shows me that I will hold the day after DCC what I will hold today. Nothing more nothing less. I think this list will prove that. Who knows what will pass, but it is a good attempt for the DAL guys.
You guys are up next. I am sure we will be pi$$ing at your proposal as well. Nov 20 we all get to know the final answer.

The current ones are. Options are not.

Carl,

Did not the DAL proposal group according to gauge, and that ratioed all of our international captain positions against yours? On page 689 of the transcripts I see the 777's, 767-400, and 76/75 Intl on our side grouped against your 747-400, 747-200, A-330, and your 75Intl.

Looked up my seniority based on the DAL proposal and looks like I would move down about 4% overall seniority.......

To start off, Im a Delta 2001 hire. With this proposal, my relative seniority is identical to what it is right now.

It is my understanding that this list is DALPA's OPENER. Based on that, this list shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone. Im sure the NWA opener will be weighted towards DOH.

I understand that some NWA guys have lost on the relative seniority front on this list. Seeing that the bottom group is all NWA, Im wondering if that hasn't been accounted for in another part of the list. I find it stange that the bottom is all NWA, yet my relative seniority hasn't changed. Make sense?

It is everyone's natural inclination to look at themselves in this situation. If we look at past mergers, often we see one end of the list taking care of itself only to sacrifice the other end. I guess we'll see.

This list is far from the finished product. I will be shocked if this doesn't end in an arbitrated list.

Boys, boys, boys. We went first so NWA can pee on our proposal. They go next and we will pee on their proposal. The arbitrated list will come out and we will both pee on it.

Anyone who has been around contract negotiations knows this. If you negotiate anything you start off with an extreme and work your way to the middle. Ever buy a car? You didn't tell the salesman you want to start at sticker and work down. You come in thousands below sticker, he comes back with a sob story, eventually the "manager/arbitrator" gets involved and the deal is reached. In this case, both sides must present extremes as they are representing their own parties. Somewhere in the middle will most likely be where the list comes out. And if this depresses you, just watch the stock market and think of the thousands you are losing if you aren't in cash right now. Wheeeeee!

Agreed, but what we have proposed is in my opinion very close to what the arbitrated or negotiated list will look like. You may see a little less here and a little more here, but overall it is very close to relative seniority. (Plus or Minus a point or two)
I also suspect that it will be tinkered with a little bit.

Guys,

I'm unable to find the Dalpa SLI proposed list......can you help a brother out?

Me Too
 

I would lose 4% seniority as well (a little over 500 numbers). I'm a NWA 99 hire and DAL 07 hires would be senior to me. I guess fair is really in the eye of the beholder. Just not my eyes. Here's to hoping for somewhere in the middle.:rolleyes:

Yes, that's probably right. My point is, ratioing in such a broad category is what gives the DAL guys the 1 to 4% advantage right from the jump and it only gets worse until you get to the bottom where it's only NWA guys.

A ratio of just 777 and 747, then A330 and 767, then narrow bodies would have resulted in closer relative seniority results. Instead it's about a 1.5% NWA disadvantage near the top and 5% plus NWA disadvantage near the bottom. Given that we are both strong airlines with NWA having a higher market cap and higher earnings, I don't see how this systemic DAL advantage from top to bottom will ultimately be justified.

Carl

If that is the case it will make the Red/Green show at NWA look like a walk in the park. As a 1999 hire I go down 4% in this list. Add to that fact that I do not get any credit for the NWA retirements of roughly 40% of our list before DAL sees any kind of retirements at all.

If we are going to do a relative seniority I should lose 0 to.5% of where I am in the list. Guess what I can live with that, but to have DAL 2007 new hires in front of me, not a good thing from the NWA side

PM sent replied

Your last DAL pilot is 400+ numbers up the list thats not close to relative seniority.

The difference for a 95 hire is 4% or right at 500 numbers to the negative.....

Where are you guys finding this list? I went on the DALPA web site and didn't see anything, except for the transcripts.

They took it down. It was not to be posted. It is a exhibit in the arbitration and was not mean for public release.

The reason you are seeing that is, Ratio, by EQUIPMENT. Now we will see if the arbitrator agrees with it. NWA may do such a good job with their presentation that we may be DOH, and then all of that DAL guys will loose 4-8%. I myself will maintain what I have under this proposal, and DOH has me loose well over 8%.

I guess my point is that I keep hearing DAL wants relative seniority but that is not what was presented...... My hope is we get something that all can be "relatively" happy with.

Same goes for seniority lists
 

Laws are like sausages. It's better not to see them being made.
Otto von Bismarck (1815 - 1898)

Amen to that. It is quite true, and that quote was used last week with the bail out bill.

DAL has always preached relative by equipment and that is what was presented.

Hmmm, not what I was seeing posted here. Straight relative seniority was what was being said by many.

Carl, surprisingly I find myself agreeing with you, but in a limited sense, and for purposes of compromise towards the top of the list. Ratioing 747/777 capt. positions would result in a slight advantage for NW ie. 237/193=1.22 at the very top.(remember all 777 flying is 12hr.+ augmented, 2 capts. per crew) But then the remaining international widebody positions (to include the limited 757 int'l at both companies) ratio would be more skewed toward Delta, at 820/347=2.36. Even more of a compromise would be to ratio 747, 330/777,767-400 which would result in even more of an advantage for NW at the very top, ie. 517/374=1.38. But then again, while NW would have an advantage in the top 891 positions of 1.38 to 1, that would leave 639 true, international widebody (767ER) capt. positions at DL and 67 (15% of NW 757 flying) international capt. positions at NW, resulting in a nearly 10 to 1 ratio for DL in the next (892-1597) 706 positions. Even if you then wanted to equate your remaining 447-67=380 domestic 757capt. positions with those 639 DL 767ER widebody international ("super premium", by comparison;)) positions you would first have to plow through the 781 capt. position DL domestic 767/757 category, which, in a huge concession,(equating NW dom. 757 time with DL International widebody time and their respective payrates brought to the merger) would still result in a 639+781/380=3.73 to 1 ratio for DL from positions 892 through 2691. The problem here of course, is that DL carries about 50 more international wide body aircraft than does NW, which equates to about 500 more capt. positions and nearly 900 more F/O positions. I am no mathematician, but it seems the more favorable the ratio is at the top of the list for NW, the less favorable it neccessarily has to be for NW towards the middle and the bottom... BTW, my relative % stayed the same in the DL proposal at 5%. ( by "stovepipe" filling of positions I would be a junior 767-400 capt., can easily "hold" 777 and 767-400, currently 76ER. 1985 hire date) Under compromise scenario #2 above (747,330/777,767-400=1.38 to 1) I would go from 5% to 7%...

Exactly. It is taking all positions and the scope of those positions in to account. Depending on where in the proposal you look it is like you post above. 1 to 2. or 1 to 1. You can tell that there was a great deal of time taken putting this together.

Hey, but at least you have no pension! :eek:

Soup

Yep, my observations exactly. I found that with DALPA's proposal I would maintain relative seniority. With DOH I will loose 7% relative seniority. Overall the difference between best case and worst case for me, is 1,177 numbers. I bring this up for comparison purposes for mid seniority DAL guys like me. At any rate it's the story of my life: "stuck in the middle."

acl65pilot: what's the skinny on the AE. Is it going to be mostly 777 stuff in ATL?