[quote=Scoop;488780]
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 488728)
Welcome back Carl,---my now official fellow Delta pilot.
I second that - Welcome aboard Carl! when it comes to making predictions, which, as we all know, is notoriously difficult..(especially about the future.;)) Do I detect a Yogi Berra paraphrase?:rolleyes::rolleyes: Scoop Carl |
Originally Posted by B7ER Guy
(Post 488750)
Sorry tsquare. Didn't mean to steal your quote, but amazangly, carl can't/won't answer the question. hmmmmmm..................
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 487152)
Just curious Carl... what do you care about any of this anyway? Aren't you and 1000 of your closest friends leaving?
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 487581)
Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. I'm 52 and it looks like I'll have to stay until 58 or 59.
Carl |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 488728)
Welcome back Carl,---my now official fellow Delta pilot. I underline retirements....one of..many things because that is undoubtedly true. NW's proposal, though, treats retirement as if it were the only thing the arbitrators should consider.
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 488728)
I believe there are a few concepts considered by arbitrators that "trump" any "future expectations" formulation...the most obvious priority concept being summed up as: "preserving current seniority". Your proposal doesn't even come close... the fences attempt to preserve DL's current seniority "rights" for 10 yrs.
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 488728)
(and they don't come close, especially as evidenced on the 767ER/767-300/757 fence,
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 488728)
and the allocations for future 777 deliveries)
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 488728)
A relative list will preserve current seniority for both groups, and within that framework we can find some way to address retirement attrition at NW.
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 488728)
To attempt to do air-tight DOH fences covering every contingency of the future invites constant conflict between the two groups, on a scale that would make your red/green book problems pale in comparison.
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 488728)
If your retirements are so concrete and quantifiable, we should be able to deal with them in a concrete and quantifiable manner, and not subject 98% of the DL pilots to the jeopardy and "promises" of the future that your proposal entails.
Carl |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 488778)
Then why aren't we ordered by age?
Retirements might be considered by arbitrators... they may very will be, but hopefully not that mythical 62.4 years your lawyer came up with.
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 488728)
Unless you are willing to sign your retirement paperwork right now stating that you are gone in another 12 years... 62.4 is meaningless. 65 is the only number that is concrete and is (hopefully) considered.
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 488728)
Must be nice to be you though... 13 more years as a whale captain... if they are around that long. But damn... you might have to stoop to a 777. I'm guessing your career has sucked so far hasn't it?
Carl |
Carl, I have a lot of friends at NWA. They paint a different picture then you do. One thing you have to remember is that the Delta contract rewards being senior in category. I can hold a line as a 777 Captain at either base as a 86 hire. I have not bid it because I want to be in the top 1/3. Since your fence does not exclude future 777's I will not reach that point ever in my career under the NWA list. As has happened at NW with the fence those that cross the fence via new deliveries or forced displacement will all be senior. I am told that your 747-400 list has mostly green book pilots in the top 1/3. I should be in the top 1/3 in NYC in the next bid and should be there in Atlanta within 2 years. I don't just want my current position protected I want my future advancement protected. Its very difficult to construct fences that accomplish that. In addition if there is going to be a fence because of the NWA retirement the fence should also reflect the Delta retirements. That means a 15 to 20 year fence. That really hammers your junior guys as your MEC found out when they made a SLI proposal without doing their homework. The most critical thing however about the NWA fence is it does not include the 7ER category which like it or not will make up half the international flying at the new company.
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 488938)
Carl, I have a lot of friends at NWA. They paint a different picture then you do. One thing you have to remember is that the Delta contract rewards being senior in category. I can hold a line as a 777 Captain at either base as a 86 hire. I have not bid it because I want to be in the top 1/3. Since your fence does not exclude future 777's I will not reach that point ever in my career under the NWA list.
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 488938)
As has happened at NW with the fence those that cross the fence via new deliveries or forced displacement will all be senior. I am told that your 747-400 list has mostly green book pilots in the top 1/3.
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 488938)
I should be in the top 1/3 in NYC in the next bid and should be there in Atlanta within 2 years. I don't just want my current position protected I want my future advancement protected. Its very difficult to construct fences that accomplish that.
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 488938)
In addition if there is going to be a fence because of the NWA retirement the fence should also reflect the Delta retirements. That means a 15 to 20 year fence.
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 488938)
That really hammers your junior guys as your MEC found out when they made a SLI proposal without doing their homework.
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 488938)
The most critical thing however about the NWA fence is it does not include the 7ER category which like it or not will make up half the international flying at the new company.
Carl |
Carl, The problem with the 777 issue is that what is a new order. Delta because they are Boeings largest customer got a excellent deal on the 777's. They have 45 delivery positions through 2014. These positions are not firm orders however are not a traditional option either. 18 months prior to each positions delivery date Delta can affirm or cancel the order. Very flexible and until Americans 787 order last week unique in the industry. It is those future 777's that will allow me to fly as a senior 777 CA in Atlanta. That will not happen with a DOH list under the NWA list. In fact if I bid the aircraft now I would go backward as more aircraft were added until at some point I would end up on reserve. You state that additional 777's would be shared. That is not what would happen virtually every 777 seat awarded after the 2 aircraft in 1Q10 would go to NWA. There would be no sharing. I do allow and agree that the Delta list does not address the higher retirements at NWA. I don't think however going from 9% on my current list to 22% on the new list is fair. Hopefully the arbitrators will see it the same.
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sailingfun,
But is it fair for a NWA 96 hire to go behind a DAL 2000 hire? Under your proposal I would go from a 330 FO back to either an 319/320 FO or 73 fo. And even though I would end in the top 100 at NWA I would never crack the top 1500 under the DAL lists. So, the word 'fair' can be used by many. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 489088)
Carl, The problem with the 777 issue is that what is a new order. Delta because they are Boeings largest customer got a excellent deal on the 777's. They have 45 delivery positions through 2014. These positions are not firm orders however are not a traditional option either. 18 months prior to each positions delivery date Delta can affirm or cancel the order. Very flexible and until Americans 787 order last week unique in the industry. It is those future 777's that will allow me to fly as a senior 777 CA in Atlanta. That will not happen with a DOH list under the NWA list.
Carl |
Well Carl with the NWA list and restrictions there is one thing that is certain. Virtually every widebody seat after the 2 777's in 1Q10 would go only to NWA pilots for many years to come. I would call that a big windfall.
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