Airline Pilot Central Forums

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Mergers and Acquisitions (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mergers-acquisitions/)
-   -   NWA fence proposal (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mergers-acquisitions/32655-nwa-fence-proposal.html)

Carl Spackler 10-30-2008 08:19 AM

[quote=Scoop;488780]

Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 488728)
Welcome back Carl,---my now official fellow Delta pilot.

I second that - Welcome aboard Carl!


when it comes to making predictions, which, as we all know, is notoriously difficult..(especially about the future.;))

Do I detect a Yogi Berra paraphrase?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Scoop

OK Scoop, since you started the thread hijack, my favorite Yogi line was in regard to his favorite restaurant in New York. When asked about it by a sports reporter he said: "Oh nobody goes there anymore...it's too crowded.

Carl

Carl Spackler 10-30-2008 08:27 AM


Originally Posted by B7ER Guy (Post 488750)
Sorry tsquare. Didn't mean to steal your quote, but amazangly, carl can't/won't answer the question. hmmmmmm..................

Yeah, I'm really bad about answering questions. Here's tsquare's post:


Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 487152)
Just curious Carl... what do you care about any of this anyway? Aren't you and 1000 of your closest friends leaving?

Here's my repsonse:


Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 487581)
Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. I'm 52 and it looks like I'll have to stay until 58 or 59.

Carl

Carl - the question dodger.

Carl Spackler 10-30-2008 08:51 AM


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 488728)
Welcome back Carl,---my now official fellow Delta pilot. I underline retirements....one of..many things because that is undoubtedly true. NW's proposal, though, treats retirement as if it were the only thing the arbitrators should consider.

That's not true. The NWA proposal preserves the seniority of NWA pilots. THAT is how it accounts for NWA pilots receiving credit for NWA retirements.


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 488728)
I believe there are a few concepts considered by arbitrators that "trump" any "future expectations" formulation...the most obvious priority concept being summed up as: "preserving current seniority". Your proposal doesn't even come close... the fences attempt to preserve DL's current seniority "rights" for 10 yrs.

The DOH proposal preserves NWA seniority, the 10 fence ensures that NWA pilots cannot use their seniority against DAL pilots. Your characterization of our proposal would be correct if it didn't include the 10 year fence. That is added to preserve DAL seniority.


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 488728)
(and they don't come close, especially as evidenced on the 767ER/767-300/757 fence,

You're correct about that. It's one of the weaknesses in our proposal and must be fixed.


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 488728)
and the allocations for future 777 deliveries)

Credit for future allocations ain't gonna happen in my opinion. Chairman Bloch's "roulette wheel" comment ended the concept of crediting anyone's future options. It may have ended credit for future firm orders as well.


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 488728)
A relative list will preserve current seniority for both groups, and within that framework we can find some way to address retirement attrition at NW.

No it doesn't. As our testimony clearly showed with that slide show moving forward in one year increments. NWA guys in red and DAL guys in blue. Under the DAL plan, every year NWA guys vanish from the top until after 10 years when virtually no NWA pilot occupies the top 2000 positions. THAT is the weakness in the DAL proposal in my opinion, and the single most devastating piece of evidence against it. After the 5 year freeze is up, a wholesale transfer of jobs from former NWA to former DAL would begin.


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 488728)
To attempt to do air-tight DOH fences covering every contingency of the future invites constant conflict between the two groups, on a scale that would make your red/green book problems pale in comparison.

As I've said earlier - as horrified as NWA pilots were to watch their relative positions fall by 20% plus when the arbitrators chose straight DOH, the 20 year fence protected the NWA jobs. It actually worked pretty well. I can tell you that you haven't seen conflict like you would see if the DAL proposal were adopted. No pilot group would be wanting to sing songs around a camp fire when DAL occupies the top and NWA occupies the bottom.


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 488728)
If your retirements are so concrete and quantifiable, we should be able to deal with them in a concrete and quantifiable manner, and not subject 98% of the DL pilots to the jeopardy and "promises" of the future that your proposal entails.

They are concrete, and DOH is the best way to get credit for them. A 10 year fence is the best way for DAL pilots to preserve their seniority until the older NWA guys (me included) are gone.

Carl

Carl Spackler 10-30-2008 09:03 AM


Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 488778)
Then why aren't we ordered by age?

Retirements might be considered by arbitrators... they may very will be, but hopefully not that mythical 62.4 years your lawyer came up with.

If you guys listen to one thing, you should listen to this point: 62.4 years is a statistically accurate determination of the average age that a pilot will separate from service. Whether by the pilot's choice or nature's choice, you are statistically gone by age 62.4. But let's not quibble about 2.6 years. Just add 2.6 years to the fences, and DAL pilots are even more protected against NWA using their seniority. When you run our proposal forward in one year increments, there are no spots where one color rules the roost except for the first 2 years. After that, there is a clear balance of DAL/NWA guys throughout the list in its entirety.


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 488728)
Unless you are willing to sign your retirement paperwork right now stating that you are gone in another 12 years... 62.4 is meaningless. 65 is the only number that is concrete and is (hopefully) considered.

I'd sign them right now. With regard to 65 being the only concrete number, see above.


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 488728)
Must be nice to be you though... 13 more years as a whale captain... if they are around that long. But damn... you might have to stoop to a 777. I'm guessing your career has sucked so far hasn't it?

There's no way I could go 13 more years, my health won't hold out. And no, my career hasn't sucked. DAL is my fourth airline and I've been furloughed 5 times, but it's been a worthwhile journey.

Carl

sailingfun 10-30-2008 11:04 AM

Carl, I have a lot of friends at NWA. They paint a different picture then you do. One thing you have to remember is that the Delta contract rewards being senior in category. I can hold a line as a 777 Captain at either base as a 86 hire. I have not bid it because I want to be in the top 1/3. Since your fence does not exclude future 777's I will not reach that point ever in my career under the NWA list. As has happened at NW with the fence those that cross the fence via new deliveries or forced displacement will all be senior. I am told that your 747-400 list has mostly green book pilots in the top 1/3. I should be in the top 1/3 in NYC in the next bid and should be there in Atlanta within 2 years. I don't just want my current position protected I want my future advancement protected. Its very difficult to construct fences that accomplish that. In addition if there is going to be a fence because of the NWA retirement the fence should also reflect the Delta retirements. That means a 15 to 20 year fence. That really hammers your junior guys as your MEC found out when they made a SLI proposal without doing their homework. The most critical thing however about the NWA fence is it does not include the 7ER category which like it or not will make up half the international flying at the new company.

Carl Spackler 10-30-2008 12:06 PM


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 488938)
Carl, I have a lot of friends at NWA. They paint a different picture then you do. One thing you have to remember is that the Delta contract rewards being senior in category. I can hold a line as a 777 Captain at either base as a 86 hire. I have not bid it because I want to be in the top 1/3. Since your fence does not exclude future 777's I will not reach that point ever in my career under the NWA list.

You absolutely will reach that point on the 777. Under the NWA proposal, NWA pilots couldn't bid the 777 for 10 years. By that time, there probably won't be a single NWA pilot around who is senior to you. Thus your only competition for the top spot in category, will be other DAL pilots.


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 488938)
As has happened at NW with the fence those that cross the fence via new deliveries or forced displacement will all be senior. I am told that your 747-400 list has mostly green book pilots in the top 1/3.

Yes, new deliveries of 777's beyond what is on firm order would be shared. And yes those NWA pilots would probably be senior to you, but that does NOT include a forced displacement. If any NWA guy is forced displaced, they can only displace to another NWA pre-merger aircraft. If we buy new 747-400's, the DAL guys that bid it would probably be senior to me. I don't think an arbitrator will spend very much brain cell activity on ensuring that very senior people only go up in their category. There are just too many other big picture items to solve.


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 488938)
I should be in the top 1/3 in NYC in the next bid and should be there in Atlanta within 2 years. I don't just want my current position protected I want my future advancement protected. Its very difficult to construct fences that accomplish that.

Again, your only competition for 10 years will be DAL guys. After 10 years, there just aren't very many senior NWA guys left.


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 488938)
In addition if there is going to be a fence because of the NWA retirement the fence should also reflect the Delta retirements. That means a 15 to 20 year fence.

If that's what it takes to ensure that DAL pilot's seniority is protected, that's OK with me.


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 488938)
That really hammers your junior guys as your MEC found out when they made a SLI proposal without doing their homework.

Pure BS. You have no evidence of that whatsoever. Our guys have always said that the reason they walked away from that first proposal is because DAL wanted to count aircraft options for themselves, and NOT count firm orders for NWA. They had no choice but to walk away. And by the way, a DOH list with a 20 year fence would not hammer our junior guys at all. The DAL proposal that puts 400+ at the bottom...would.


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 488938)
The most critical thing however about the NWA fence is it does not include the 7ER category which like it or not will make up half the international flying at the new company.

As I've said earlier, that is a correct statement. That inequity must/will be solved.

Carl

sailingfun 10-30-2008 03:17 PM

Carl, The problem with the 777 issue is that what is a new order. Delta because they are Boeings largest customer got a excellent deal on the 777's. They have 45 delivery positions through 2014. These positions are not firm orders however are not a traditional option either. 18 months prior to each positions delivery date Delta can affirm or cancel the order. Very flexible and until Americans 787 order last week unique in the industry. It is those future 777's that will allow me to fly as a senior 777 CA in Atlanta. That will not happen with a DOH list under the NWA list. In fact if I bid the aircraft now I would go backward as more aircraft were added until at some point I would end up on reserve. You state that additional 777's would be shared. That is not what would happen virtually every 777 seat awarded after the 2 aircraft in 1Q10 would go to NWA. There would be no sharing. I do allow and agree that the Delta list does not address the higher retirements at NWA. I don't think however going from 9% on my current list to 22% on the new list is fair. Hopefully the arbitrators will see it the same.

Opus 10-30-2008 03:56 PM

sailingfun,

But is it fair for a NWA 96 hire to go behind a DAL 2000 hire? Under your proposal I would go from a 330 FO back to either an 319/320 FO or 73 fo. And even though I would end in the top 100 at NWA I would never crack the top 1500 under the DAL lists. So, the word 'fair' can be used by many.

Carl Spackler 10-30-2008 04:30 PM


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 489088)
Carl, The problem with the 777 issue is that what is a new order. Delta because they are Boeings largest customer got a excellent deal on the 777's. They have 45 delivery positions through 2014. These positions are not firm orders however are not a traditional option either. 18 months prior to each positions delivery date Delta can affirm or cancel the order. Very flexible and until Americans 787 order last week unique in the industry. It is those future 777's that will allow me to fly as a senior 777 CA in Atlanta. That will not happen with a DOH list under the NWA list.

When Chairman Bloch made his "roulette wheel" statement, I believe he was talking about this type of expectation - among others. Just the same as if I were to say that all our 787 options will allow me to fly as a senior 787 CA. I think the arbitrators made it about as clear as I have ever heard (prior to an award), this level of protection for pilots (especially senior ones) can't be predicted, and as such, ain't gonna happen.

Carl

sailingfun 10-30-2008 04:56 PM

Well Carl with the NWA list and restrictions there is one thing that is certain. Virtually every widebody seat after the 2 777's in 1Q10 would go only to NWA pilots for many years to come. I would call that a big windfall.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:55 PM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands