Carl Spackler

[quote=Scoop;488780]OK Scoop, since you started the thread hijack, my favorite Yogi line was in regard to his favorite restaurant in New York. When asked about it by a sports reporter he said: "Oh nobody goes there anymore...it's too crowded.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Yeah, I'm really bad about answering questions. Here's tsquare's post:

Here's my repsonse:

Carl - the question dodger.

Carl Spackler

That's not true. The NWA proposal preserves the seniority of NWA pilots. THAT is how it accounts for NWA pilots receiving credit for NWA retirements.

The DOH proposal preserves NWA seniority, the 10 fence ensures that NWA pilots cannot use their seniority against DAL pilots. Your characterization of our proposal would be correct if it didn't include the 10 year fence. That is added to preserve DAL seniority.

You're correct about that. It's one of the weaknesses in our proposal and must be fixed.

Credit for future allocations ain't gonna happen in my opinion. Chairman Bloch's "roulette wheel" comment ended the concept of crediting anyone's future options. It may have ended credit for future firm orders as well.

No it doesn't. As our testimony clearly showed with that slide show moving forward in one year increments. NWA guys in red and DAL guys in blue. Under the DAL plan, every year NWA guys vanish from the top until after 10 years when virtually no NWA pilot occupies the top 2000 positions. THAT is the weakness in the DAL proposal in my opinion, and the single most devastating piece of evidence against it. After the 5 year freeze is up, a wholesale transfer of jobs from former NWA to former DAL would begin.

As I've said earlier - as horrified as NWA pilots were to watch their relative positions fall by 20% plus when the arbitrators chose straight DOH, the 20 year fence protected the NWA jobs. It actually worked pretty well. I can tell you that you haven't seen conflict like you would see if the DAL proposal were adopted. No pilot group would be wanting to sing songs around a camp fire when DAL occupies the top and NWA occupies the bottom.

They are concrete, and DOH is the best way to get credit for them. A 10 year fence is the best way for DAL pilots to preserve their seniority until the older NWA guys (me included) are gone.

Carl

Carl Spackler

If you guys listen to one thing, you should listen to this point: 62.4 years is a statistically accurate determination of the average age that a pilot will separate from service. Whether by the pilot's choice or nature's choice, you are statistically gone by age 62.4. But let's not quibble about 2.6 years. Just add 2.6 years to the fences, and DAL pilots are even more protected against NWA using their seniority. When you run our proposal forward in one year increments, there are no spots where one color rules the roost except for the first 2 years. After that, there is a clear balance of DAL/NWA guys throughout the list in its entirety.

I'd sign them right now. With regard to 65 being the only concrete number, see above.

There's no way I could go 13 more years, my health won't hold out. And no, my career hasn't sucked. DAL is my fourth airline and I've been furloughed 5 times, but it's been a worthwhile journey.

Carl

sailingfun

Carl, I have a lot of friends at NWA. They paint a different picture then you do. One thing you have to remember is that the Delta contract rewards being senior in category. I can hold a line as a 777 Captain at either base as a 86 hire. I have not bid it because I want to be in the top 1/3. Since your fence does not exclude future 777's I will not reach that point ever in my career under the NWA list. As has happened at NW with the fence those that cross the fence via new deliveries or forced displacement will all be senior. I am told that your 747-400 list has mostly green book pilots in the top 1/3. I should be in the top 1/3 in NYC in the next bid and should be there in Atlanta within 2 years. I don't just want my current position protected I want my future advancement protected. Its very difficult to construct fences that accomplish that. In addition if there is going to be a fence because of the NWA retirement the fence should also reflect the Delta retirements. That means a 15 to 20 year fence. That really hammers your junior guys as your MEC found out when they made a SLI proposal without doing their homework. The most critical thing however about the NWA fence is it does not include the 7ER category which like it or not will make up half the international flying at the new company.

Carl Spackler

You absolutely will reach that point on the 777. Under the NWA proposal, NWA pilots couldn't bid the 777 for 10 years. By that time, there probably won't be a single NWA pilot around who is senior to you. Thus your only competition for the top spot in category, will be other DAL pilots.

Yes, new deliveries of 777's beyond what is on firm order would be shared. And yes those NWA pilots would probably be senior to you, but that does NOT include a forced displacement. If any NWA guy is forced displaced, they can only displace to another NWA pre-merger aircraft. If we buy new 747-400's, the DAL guys that bid it would probably be senior to me. I don't think an arbitrator will spend very much brain cell activity on ensuring that very senior people only go up in their category. There are just too many other big picture items to solve.

Again, your only competition for 10 years will be DAL guys. After 10 years, there just aren't very many senior NWA guys left.

If that's what it takes to ensure that DAL pilot's seniority is protected, that's OK with me.

Pure BS. You have no evidence of that whatsoever. Our guys have always said that the reason they walked away from that first proposal is because DAL wanted to count aircraft options for themselves, and NOT count firm orders for NWA. They had no choice but to walk away. And by the way, a DOH list with a 20 year fence would not hammer our junior guys at all. The DAL proposal that puts 400+ at the bottom...would.

As I've said earlier, that is a correct statement. That inequity must/will be solved.

Carl

sailingfun

Carl, The problem with the 777 issue is that what is a new order. Delta because they are Boeings largest customer got a excellent deal on the 777's. They have 45 delivery positions through 2014. These positions are not firm orders however are not a traditional option either. 18 months prior to each positions delivery date Delta can affirm or cancel the order. Very flexible and until Americans 787 order last week unique in the industry. It is those future 777's that will allow me to fly as a senior 777 CA in Atlanta. That will not happen with a DOH list under the NWA list. In fact if I bid the aircraft now I would go backward as more aircraft were added until at some point I would end up on reserve. You state that additional 777's would be shared. That is not what would happen virtually every 777 seat awarded after the 2 aircraft in 1Q10 would go to NWA. There would be no sharing. I do allow and agree that the Delta list does not address the higher retirements at NWA. I don't think however going from 9% on my current list to 22% on the new list is fair. Hopefully the arbitrators will see it the same.

Opus

sailingfun,

But is it fair for a NWA 96 hire to go behind a DAL 2000 hire? Under your proposal I would go from a 330 FO back to either an 319/320 FO or 73 fo. And even though I would end in the top 100 at NWA I would never crack the top 1500 under the DAL lists. So, the word 'fair' can be used by many.

Carl Spackler

When Chairman Bloch made his "roulette wheel" statement, I believe he was talking about this type of expectation - among others. Just the same as if I were to say that all our 787 options will allow me to fly as a senior 787 CA. I think the arbitrators made it about as clear as I have ever heard (prior to an award), this level of protection for pilots (especially senior ones) can't be predicted, and as such, ain't gonna happen.

Carl

sailingfun

Well Carl with the NWA list and restrictions there is one thing that is certain. Virtually every widebody seat after the 2 777's in 1Q10 would go only to NWA pilots for many years to come. I would call that a big windfall.