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Old 10-31-2008, 12:54 PM   #141  
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Carl,
I agree that there is a lot of Kool-aid being sloshed around at both sides but especially from the recent DAL hires. Being ex-military I was a kool-aid drinker and thought I was actually a valued employee - right up until I was furloughed, with a no-furlough clause intact. At that point the kool-aid developed a bitter after taste that still remains and I refuse to touch the stuff. That is when it dawned on me that I was just a cost to be minimized so that management could increase the size of their bonus, compenstaion, thievery etc. I am convinced that for a while DAL was not being run to maximize profit, or even minimize losses, but to further enrich management. I hope those days are gone but I will not believe managements words until they are backed up with actions.
Contrary to our management, I think our union guys have been straight shooters all along and since we have no red book - green book rift I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt if their is a discrepancy between the two MEC's, granted I am not an unbiased observer.

Scoop
Great post Scoop. Believe it or not, there is no more red/green stuff going on with the committees now that they've found a new adversary. My biased view is that our guys have been very straight forward with us as well.

Carl
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:57 PM   #142  
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Carl,

One of my basic objections to the NW proposed DOH list is that any new equipment that comes on property will be filled by a former NW pilot and could very well move a DL pilot who is currently on that equipment down and possibly off that equipment.

Example: Per the NW proposed fence, I believe 290 777 capt positions are fenced. Say in 5 years we now have 350 capt positions on the 777. They will all be filled by NW pilots because of a DOH list and NW getting 1500 of the top 1800 positions(approx) and thereby inhibiting any movement for the DL side and pushing DL pilots that were already on that equipment more junior.

Now these aircraft are not on firm order but our agreement with Boeing is different than most and has been explained before. Your Merger committee also wants to fence off 315 Capt positions on the 787 that wont be delivered for, at the least, a year and probably not until 2010.

I guess my problem comes from being able to envision any new widebody capt positions going to former NW pilots, and I will qualify it, ALMOST exclusively and thereby hindering any pre-merger DL pilots advancement to these positions that would have been available to them.

Denny
Denny, I'm not going to pretend that the NWA DOH proposal is going to go through, but there is a provision in the proposal that will keep movement happening on the DAL side for growth aircraft. Orders firmed up and delivered after DCC are treated as growth aircraft that are shared 1:1. So, your number of 290 protected captains would grow over time if and when additional aircraft are delivered.
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:11 PM   #143  
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Orders firmed up and delivered after DCC are treated as growth aircraft that are shared 1:1. So, your number of 290 protected captains would grow over time if and when additional aircraft are delivered.
Thanks for that. NWA is 42% of our size, but gets 50% of the growth. NWA has the fleets most at risk for parking, but because of DOH gets protections. NWA has the most paper airplanes (wanna bet whether or not any of those current 787's EVER show up on the property due to performance issues?) but want credit for any 777's as replacements. NWA currently has substantially fewer widebodies as a percentage of fleet, but gets access to the Delta order book.

The merger is done. The SLI is ugly. I hope the arbitrators are wise men.
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:12 PM   #144  
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I'm hearing a move toward ALOS (Adjusted Length Of Service). Our strike time would count against us at the top, and furlough time would count against guys at the middle and bottom. ALOS treats the bottom a lot more fairly because no single group occupies the bottom. Dates of hire in the bottom third will still be skewed toward a DAL advantage, but not quite as bad as the current DAL proposal.

Interesting rumor...

Carl
Carl,

ALOS takes your strike time away from your DOH proposal? If so that would really put a dent in your time. What a month or two? If I'm wrong, please expound. My money says relative seniority tweaked for retirements(pilots and aircraft) and fleets (%of widebody etc)

Cog
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:16 PM   #145  
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That deal last spring was dead on arrival. If our guys are telling the truth, it was every bit as extreme as the current DAL proposal. If you think movement toward the spring proposal is movement, you are greatly mistaken.



Without fences, you would be right. With the 10 year fence in the NWA proposal, virtually all movement in pre-merger DAL aircraft would go to DAL pilots for 10 years. The fact that so many DAL guys continue to pretend that the 10 year fence either doesn't exist or is some sort of NWA trick, really keeps you from looking at this objectively.

Carl
Carl,

My opinion only, but I think there is NO WAY the arbitors or our teams would sign off on a 10 yr. fence. I think that RA would just not accept it if it somehow got to him. A fence that long illustrates how "out there" DOH is.

Cog
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:56 PM   #146  
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:58 PM   #147  
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Old 10-31-2008, 02:03 PM   #148  
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Carl,

My opinion only, but I think there is NO WAY the arbitors or our teams would sign off on a 10 yr. fence. I think that RA would just not accept it if it somehow got to him. A fence that long illustrates how "out there" DOH is.

Cog
The fence is so we can enjoy our retirements like you enjoyed yours.

PS
Fences are very common to mergers, its not "out there".
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Old 10-31-2008, 05:39 PM   #149  
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Thanks for that. NWA is 42% of our size, but gets 50% of the growth.
Good point. The 1 for 1 ratio should probably be changed to 7 for 5 to better reflect the overall ratio.

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NWA has the fleets most at risk for parking
BS...your opinion only.

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NWA has the most paper airplanes (wanna bet whether or not any of those current 787's EVER show up on the property due to performance issues?)
Arbitrators don't place much stock in "bets."

Nothing other than complete surrender by NWA will please you slowplay, that is clear. Given our past reputation for being willing to fight - you should know better.

Carl
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Old 10-31-2008, 05:41 PM   #150  
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Carl,

ALOS takes your strike time away from your DOH proposal? If so that would really put a dent in your time. What a month or two? If I'm wrong, please expound.
A month lost for the top guys and a number of years lost for the bottom guys because of furloughs.

Carl
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