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Old 10-27-2008, 06:20 PM   #51  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
You DO know that DALPA agreed to arbitration...don't you?

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Carl,
What does that mean??? I'm merely expressing my opinion that there won't be long, system wide fences. Don't you see the major arguments aginst this?
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Old 10-27-2008, 06:27 PM   #52  
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Originally Posted by NWA320pilot View Post
You still have not addressed how it is OK that I and other NWA pilots lose 5%........
FWIW, I don't think that is fair and would expect that to be corrected in the final list. However, I still contend that your plan has significantly more disparity in current SL % and future SL % gains. Much of your list will realize double digit % gains in your list. No Delta guys even approach that kind of WINDFALL.

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Old 10-27-2008, 06:29 PM   #53  
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I agree with much of what you say. Not really getting worked up, just have a few days off and am bored! Yes these are merely my opinions

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Old 10-27-2008, 06:43 PM   #54  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
The terms you cite above from the DAL PWA have been overwritten by the new JPWA and several side letters relating to the agreed SLI process. I've been told by our folks that know all of these documents that neither management team has any role in the matter. DAL can only accept the list...period.

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Carl,
While I am sure that is what they have told you, I do know what I have been told, and there seems to be a disconnect. I was told that DL management CAN reject the SLI. I guess we will find out sometime after Nov 20th. You might be getting a bunch of orders for that new grass of yours to ease the pain.
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:27 PM   #55  
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Carl,
Read my post under "The Top 1500 positions" for a little perspective. An Apr '87 NWA pilot goes from 36% at NWA to 22% at the new Delta under your plan. Talk about a windfall! Under the Delta plan, he only loses 2% to 38% and I bet his bidding opportunities are actually better after SOC. Conversely, 2 different Delta guys lose 7 and 9% under the NWA plan but under the Delta plan, they gain only 1% and zero% under the Delta plan

Cog
As an 87 NWA hire I agree with your viewpoint. I believe the 10 year fence protects the WB Captains only. 10 year fence is too difficult for the new DAL company to administer. (I've seen the diversity that a 20 year fence does to the pilot group ain't fun) Just give me a seniority number I can use and bid.

Having said that, the DAL proposal unfairly places the 2000-2001 hire NWA pilot below DAL 2007 hire. I'd be happy with a 're-visit' of the bottom of the list and accept the DAL proposal. My career expectations? A paycheck every 2 weeks.
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:42 PM   #56  
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As an 87 NWA hire I agree with your viewpoint. I believe the 10 year fence protects the WB Captains only. 10 year fence is too difficult for the new DAL company to administer. (I've seen the diversity that a 20 year fence does to the pilot group ain't fun) Just give me a seniority number I can use and bid.

Having said that, the DAL proposal unfairly places the 2000-2001 hire NWA pilot below DAL 2007 hire. I'd be happy with a 're-visit' of the bottom of the list and accept the DAL proposal. My career expectations? A paycheck every 2 weeks.
Agreed. I haven't seen the specifics and rationale behind the bottom of the list but I certainly understand the angst of NWA guys. However, the top of the list is even more agregious. Although it is purely my OPINION, I don't think a long, big fence is manageable, realistic or something this group wants to live under. One other thing... as an 87 hire, around 35% or so systemwide %, what can you hold? I am an Aug '88 hire, 22% and hold line holder 767 Capt but could hold a line on 767ER (intl) or junior 767-400 or 777 Capt. A big disparity compared to you guys.

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Old 10-27-2008, 07:45 PM   #57  
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Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob View Post
Carl,
While I am sure that is what they have told you, I do know what I have been told, and there seems to be a disconnect. I was told that DL management CAN reject the SLI. I guess we will find out sometime after Nov 20th. You might be getting a bunch of orders for that new grass of yours to ease the pain.
DL management can indeed reject the SLI award if they can demonstrate to the aribitrator(s) that it is financially/econmoically harmful to the company.
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:06 AM   #58  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
The terms you cite above from the DAL PWA have been overwritten by the new JPWA and several side letters relating to the agreed SLI process. I've been told by our folks that know all of these documents that neither management team has any role in the matter. DAL can only accept the list...period. Carl
Carl-
I don't know where you're getting that. Unless there are some unpublished secret documents.

Here's the language from the JOINT contract that we all just ratified:

Section 1.D.8.
b. the pilot seniority lists of the Company and the acquired airline will be integrated pursuant to Association merger policy if both groups are represented by the Association, or if the airmen of the acquired airline are not represented by the Association, then pursuant to a method to be determined by the Delta MEC.
1) However, in either case, the integrated seniority list produced by the Association, including any attendant conditions and restrictions, will be subject to the approval of the Company, and will be submitted to the Company for approval within twelve months of the date the Company or any affiliate acquired control of the acquired airline. The Company will provide the Association with its decision as to approval or disapproval (including its reasons for disapproval) of the integrated seniority list produced by the Association within two months following receipt of
the integrated seniority list. If the Association does not without good cause produce and present an integrated seniority list to the Company for approval within twelve months of the date the Company or any affiliate acquired control of the acquired airline, the pilot and airman seniority lists of the Company and the acquired airline, respectively, will be integrated pursuant to the arbitration procedures set forth in
Section 1 D. 8. b. 2).
2) If the Company rejects the list produced by the Association, the Association may modify the list and resubmit it to the Company for approval within three months after the date of such rejection, or at the election of the Association, the Association and the Company will submit to an arbitrator mutually selected by the Association and the Company for a final and binding decision, the choice of a list produced by the Association and a list produced by the Company. If the seniority
list integration issue is to be submitted to an arbitrator and the Company and the Association cannot agree on the selection of an arbitrator, the arbitrator will be selected from the list of arbitrators referred to in
Section 19, utilizing the alternate strike-off method, with the right to first strike a name from such list determined by the toss of a coin.
3) If the Association does not resubmit a modified list within the permitted time period or does so resubmit a modified list but it is rejected by the Company, then the matter will be decided through the arbitration procedure set forth in
Section 1 D. 8. b. 2).


Last edited by Check Essential; 10-28-2008 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:42 AM   #59  
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The company will probably reject any fence proposal that is longer than 24 to 36 months. Any fence longer than that places uneccessary financial strain on the company when it comes to fleet planning and staffing. The NWA proposal once again protects the top of the list and shows how we eat our young everyday.

Curiousity question not meant to incite but just fact finding. For those NWA '01 hires how long have you actually been on the property? Ie. not furloughed? Is it 2-3 years? I know some '01 new hires that were furloughed from Delta for 6 years. With that in mind why do you find DALPA's proposal so offensive when your time on property is only three years at best. Your relative seniority within both groups is preserved.

Our new company will lose a lot of possible financial synergies of our fleet if we fence for longer than 3 years. Expect a small fence because if we don't then both training departments will implode upon themselves as we go through a huge training bubble. Let's not do that because if we do that then we follow the road of USAir in the late 90's and that gets us nowhere.

Cheers.
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:19 AM   #60  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
Except for the first six months where they have to cover moving costs to a new base, and/or a involuntary displacement. That is where the money come from, and a lot of it.
OR... there could be a lot of deadheading around the system. I guess your intel is pretty good in this arena, but I have to wonder about this CVG and/or SLC base... or any (non premium widebody) flying that might be transferred to MSP,SEA or DTW. If there is not a sufficient number of flights to justify standing up a base (with the requisite reserve pilot requirements etc..) Wouldn't (hasn't DAL's history shown) it to be more likely that DTW and MSP...CVG would be served with 6 day trips originating in ATL or NYC? That particular solution is waay more elegant, efficient and definitely cost effective than standing up a category for 4 to 6 flights/day... I know... wishful thinking on my part since I don't want to see JFK decimated (catagorically speaking of course).

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