Notices
Mergers and Acquisitions Facts, rumors, and conjecture

NWA fence proposal

Old 10-27-2008, 04:52 PM
  #41  
Back on TDY
 
Carl Spackler's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Default

Originally Posted by DeadHead View Post
Does this SLI make anyone else feel like a bartender getting the leftovers at the bar at the end of the night?

Sure your gonna get laid, but no matter what you probably won't enjoy it and regardless, your gonna wake up in bed together.
I wouldn't know DeadHead. Women don't seem to be attracted to the scent of gopher pesticides. I've never understood that.

Carl
Carl Spackler is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 04:59 PM
  #42  
Back on TDY
 
Carl Spackler's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Default

Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob View Post
Where does it say that management has to accept the outcome of this unconditionally? It is only binding on the pilots, not management.

You say "Not correct," yet offer no proof to back up your claim. I said it was "my understanding," that the company doesn't have to accept the list, and that understanding is based on this excerpt from an DALPA FAQ doc:

3. What is the role of the company in seniority integration? Can the company unilaterally implement its own list? Must the company approve any integrated list the union develops?

The company cannot unilaterally implement an integrated seniority list (see Section 1.D.8 of the PWA). Under the PWA, however, an integrated seniority list developed by ALPA must be submitted to the Company for its approval. Section 1.D.8.b. of the PWA contains specific timelines and procedures for the company to accept ALPA’s integrated list or, in the absence of such acceptance, for potential arbitration between ALPA and the company for selecting between a merged list proposed by ALPA or one proposed by the company. The ALPA/NWA agreement, however, does not provide for this type of dispute resolution between ALPA and the company, so these conflicting terms between the agreements may need to be resolved in the negotiation of transition terms.


What I get out of this is that they do not have to unilaterally accept the list "As Is."
The last sentance seems to suggest that once we finish with the SLI, then round 2 starts with the company should they find any aspects of the SLI (re fences) unacceptable.

Or can you provide information that shows differently.
The terms you cite above from the DAL PWA have been overwritten by the new JPWA and several side letters relating to the agreed SLI process. I've been told by our folks that know all of these documents that neither management team has any role in the matter. DAL can only accept the list...period.

Carl
Carl Spackler is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 05:02 PM
  #43  
Back on TDY
 
Carl Spackler's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Default

Originally Posted by Cogf16 View Post
Thats why NWA's proposed 10 year fence is ridiculous and totally unrealistic. As I said previously, any SLI proposal that contains 10 yr. fences illustrates how indefenseable it is on its own merits and clearly something that Delta would reject outright. Try again NWA
You're right Cog. NWALPA should amend their SLI proposal to straight DOH with no fences. Then it would be equally extreme as the DALPA proposal, but according to you, at least it would be defensible.

Carl
Carl Spackler is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 05:09 PM
  #44  
Back on TDY
 
Carl Spackler's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Default

Originally Posted by capncrunch View Post
There are issues with or without a fence. Which would you rather? Protect what you have for a while or throw it all up in the air and let an arbitrator decide where the chips fall? At this point I don't see how we will agree on a list, both sides are ridiculous to the other.
I think that's probably true on this forum, but not with our negotiators. Unlike the usual DAL suspects on these threads that would somehow justify a staple job of NWA pilots, the DAL negotiators know their proposal is way out on the edge. The NWA negotiators also know the mistakes and extremes in their proposal.

I still think a negotiated SLI could happen.

Carl
Carl Spackler is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 05:23 PM
  #45  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Cogf16's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: VEOP Retired! 7ER A was last position
Posts: 978
Default

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
You're right Cog. NWALPA should amend their SLI proposal to straight DOH with no fences. Then it would be equally extreme as the DALPA proposal, but according to you, at least it would be defensible.

Carl
Carl,
Read my post under "The Top 1500 positions" for a little perspective. An Apr '87 NWA pilot goes from 36% at NWA to 22% at the new Delta under your plan. Talk about a windfall! Under the Delta plan, he only loses 2% to 38% and I bet his bidding opportunities are actually better after SOC. Conversely, 2 different Delta guys lose 7 and 9% under the NWA plan but under the Delta plan, they gain only 1% and zero% under the Delta plan

Cog
Cogf16 is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 05:33 PM
  #46  
Underboob King
 
Superpilot92's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Default

Originally Posted by Cogf16 View Post
Carl,
Read my post under "The Top 1500 positions" for a little perspective. An Apr '87 NWA pilot goes from 36% at NWA to 22% at the new Delta under your plan. Talk about a windfall! Under the Delta plan, he only loses 2% to 38% and I bet his bidding opportunities are actually better after SOC. Conversely, 2 different Delta guys lose 7 and 9% under the NWA plan but under the Delta plan, they gain only 1% and zero% under the Delta plan

Cog
You're leaving out the key point, the FENCE is the ONLY way that list can be presented. Those guys have a gain in Seniority in only a seniority # discussion not in career progression. Career progression wise those pilots on both sides have the same career advancement they have right now. The % during the fence is irrelevant thus the point of the fence. When the fence is over the list is equaled out and actually the DAL side will hold the top of the list.
Superpilot92 is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 05:47 PM
  #47  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Cogf16's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: VEOP Retired! 7ER A was last position
Posts: 978
Default

Originally Posted by Superpilot92 View Post
You're leaving out the key point, the FENCE is the ONLY way that list can be presented. Those guys have a gain in Seniority in only a seniority # discussion not in career progression. Career progression wise those pilots on both sides have the same career advancement they have right now. The % during the fence is irrelevant thus the point of the fence. When the fence is over the list is equaled out and actually the DAL side will hold the top of the list.
Super,
There will not a be a system wide 10 yr. fence! No way, no how. Its laughable. Instead lets just not do the SLI for 10 yrs. You guys fly your fleet, we'll fly ours. See how ridiculous both those ideas sound?
Cogf16 is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 06:00 PM
  #48  
Gets Weekends Off
 
NWA320pilot's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
Default

Originally Posted by Cogf16 View Post
Carl,
Read my post under "The Top 1500 positions" for a little perspective. An Apr '87 NWA pilot goes from 36% at NWA to 22% at the new Delta under your plan. Talk about a windfall! Under the Delta plan, he only loses 2% to 38% and I bet his bidding opportunities are actually better after SOC. Conversely, 2 different Delta guys lose 7 and 9% under the NWA plan but under the Delta plan, they gain only 1% and zero% under the Delta plan

Cog
You still have not addressed how it is OK that I and other NWA pilots lose 5%........
NWA320pilot is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 06:13 PM
  #49  
Back on TDY
 
Carl Spackler's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Default

Originally Posted by Cogf16 View Post
Super,
There will not a be a system wide 10 yr. fence! No way, no how. Its laughable. Instead lets just not do the SLI for 10 yrs. You guys fly your fleet, we'll fly ours. See how ridiculous both those ideas sound?
You DO know that DALPA agreed to arbitration...don't you?

Carl
Carl Spackler is offline  
Old 10-27-2008, 06:14 PM
  #50  
Underboob King
 
Superpilot92's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Default

Originally Posted by Cogf16 View Post
Super,
There will not a be a system wide 10 yr. fence! No way, no how. Its laughable. Instead lets just not do the SLI for 10 yrs. You guys fly your fleet, we'll fly ours. See how ridiculous both those ideas sound?

Thats YOUR opinion, maybe there will be a fence, maybe there wont be. I assure you neither you nor I KNOW what WILL happen. You can pretend you KNOW all you want but all i have done is offer my opinion. You consistently say everyone is wrong who has a difference of opinion, why? Are you right? Could it be you're wrong?

More likely is that the arbitrators WILL decide whats fair and whats not. BTW it wasnt a system wide fence, only the listed positions would be fenced under the NWA proposal and that gives the company the freedom to do what they need to do in order to staff the airline. Its just a proposal, just like your sides. Neither one will be the final out come so stop getting so worked up over the details. I assure you that by arguing on here who is right and wrong is pointless and wont change the outcome.
Superpilot92 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
ERJ Jay
Major
3
10-22-2008 06:57 AM
MJB68
Major
6
10-19-2008 12:30 PM
Scoop
Mergers and Acquisitions
176
10-10-2008 07:03 PM
NoSoupForYou
Mergers and Acquisitions
10
09-06-2008 07:00 PM
Oberon
Major
2
08-08-2008 10:10 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices