NWA fence proposal
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,224
sailingfun,
But is it fair for a NWA 96 hire to go behind a DAL 2000 hire? Under your proposal I would go from a 330 FO back to either an 319/320 FO or 73 fo. And even though I would end in the top 100 at NWA I would never crack the top 1500 under the DAL lists. So, the word 'fair' can be used by many.
But is it fair for a NWA 96 hire to go behind a DAL 2000 hire? Under your proposal I would go from a 330 FO back to either an 319/320 FO or 73 fo. And even though I would end in the top 100 at NWA I would never crack the top 1500 under the DAL lists. So, the word 'fair' can be used by many.
#112
Sailing,
IMO doing the category list (stove piped) like you guys propose is where the whole ratio thing breaks down. I agree that a pure DOH list is unfair to you guys, (yes I would love it), but your attempt to "rationalize" the list drops me 4% vs my current NWA list. I'm just under half way up as a 9/95 hire and the percentage gets worse as you go towards the bottom of the stovepipe, to the point you run out of premerger Delta guys and 404 exNWA guys are at the bottom.
Lots of problems with a pure DOH list including bad year group management, ie you hired when we didn't and vise versa (I call it a saw tooth list) but of the two I would argue that DOH is "cleaner" than the stove pipe.
Good discussion, don't ya wish we could be flies on the wall and hear the pros discuss this? What ya wanna bet we are close to their arguments......and why we're still fighting about this 7 months later.
Hope to see ya in NRT sometime your 777 dudeness!
Ferd
IMO doing the category list (stove piped) like you guys propose is where the whole ratio thing breaks down. I agree that a pure DOH list is unfair to you guys, (yes I would love it), but your attempt to "rationalize" the list drops me 4% vs my current NWA list. I'm just under half way up as a 9/95 hire and the percentage gets worse as you go towards the bottom of the stovepipe, to the point you run out of premerger Delta guys and 404 exNWA guys are at the bottom.
Lots of problems with a pure DOH list including bad year group management, ie you hired when we didn't and vise versa (I call it a saw tooth list) but of the two I would argue that DOH is "cleaner" than the stove pipe.
Good discussion, don't ya wish we could be flies on the wall and hear the pros discuss this? What ya wanna bet we are close to their arguments......and why we're still fighting about this 7 months later.
Hope to see ya in NRT sometime your 777 dudeness!
Ferd
#113
The way I see it, the final outcome will not go far enough for some NWers, and will go too far for some Dlers with respect to fences and or closer DOHs, ( not a straight DOH list though.) My personal plan is to drink large amounts of beer, followed by putting my fingers in my ears and saying, "LA LA LA LA I CAN"T HEAR YOU!" whenever anybody starts to complain how they got screwed on the SLI, regardless of which side they originally came from.
#114
Carl
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330 capt
Posts: 236
When Chairman Bloch made his "roulette wheel" statement, I believe he was talking about this type of expectation - among others. Just the same as if I were to say that all our 787 options will allow me to fly as a senior 787 CA. I think the arbitrators made it about as clear as I have ever heard (prior to an award), this level of protection for pilots (especially senior ones) can't be predicted, and as such, ain't gonna happen.
Carl
Carl
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 330Fo
Posts: 215
Sailing,
I guess I just don't understand why we can't find somewhere in the middle,like splitting the difference between DOH and Relative Seniority. Then we'd both be equally ****ed/happy pending one's disposition. I don't know what DALPA is thinking but I hope it doesn't go to arbitration not because I do not believe our guys didn't make great arguments, with Blouch stating that we are equals, but rather for the harmony of the next 20 years it really would not be good for either group to outright win. I.E I don't want date of hire (don't shoot me fellow NWAers) because the disharmony and ill will that would cause for the next upteen years and the same argument goes for relative seniority.
I do hope calmer heads will prevail and the two sides will just split their differences in half and then we can ***** about it over beers in AMS or CDG or NRT. I'll buy the first round.
I guess I just don't understand why we can't find somewhere in the middle,like splitting the difference between DOH and Relative Seniority. Then we'd both be equally ****ed/happy pending one's disposition. I don't know what DALPA is thinking but I hope it doesn't go to arbitration not because I do not believe our guys didn't make great arguments, with Blouch stating that we are equals, but rather for the harmony of the next 20 years it really would not be good for either group to outright win. I.E I don't want date of hire (don't shoot me fellow NWAers) because the disharmony and ill will that would cause for the next upteen years and the same argument goes for relative seniority.
I do hope calmer heads will prevail and the two sides will just split their differences in half and then we can ***** about it over beers in AMS or CDG or NRT. I'll buy the first round.
Last edited by Opus; 10-30-2008 at 07:37 PM. Reason: typo
#117
Sailing,
I guess I just don't understand why we can't find somewhere in the middle,like splitting the difference between DOH and Relative Seniority. Then we'd both be equally ****ed/happy pending one's disposition. I don't know what DALPA is thinking but I hope it doesn't go to arbitration not because I do not believe our guys didn't make great arguments, with Blouch stating that we are equals, but rather for the harmony of the next 20 years it really would not be good for either group to outright win. I.E I don't want date of hire (don't shoot me fellow NWAers) because the disharmony and ill will that would cause for the next upteen years and the same argument goes for relative seniority.
I do hope calmer heads will prevail and the two sides will just split their differences in half and then we can ***** about it over beers in AMS or CDG or NRT. I'll buy the first round.
I guess I just don't understand why we can't find somewhere in the middle,like splitting the difference between DOH and Relative Seniority. Then we'd both be equally ****ed/happy pending one's disposition. I don't know what DALPA is thinking but I hope it doesn't go to arbitration not because I do not believe our guys didn't make great arguments, with Blouch stating that we are equals, but rather for the harmony of the next 20 years it really would not be good for either group to outright win. I.E I don't want date of hire (don't shoot me fellow NWAers) because the disharmony and ill will that would cause for the next upteen years and the same argument goes for relative seniority.
I do hope calmer heads will prevail and the two sides will just split their differences in half and then we can ***** about it over beers in AMS or CDG or NRT. I'll buy the first round.
Last edited by Hawaii50; 10-30-2008 at 07:51 PM.
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 330Fo
Posts: 215
Okay, if that's what you want to believe then okay! But, no matter how you run the numbers I lose 1700 numbers by the DAL proposal and that is not the middle of the road by any means. If DAL is going to hold on to relative seniority argument and not move from that position then the SLI will end up in the hands of the arbitraitors and then come what may. The NWA side feels that they have a solid argument as does the DAL guys however, my point being, is that for either side to outright win would be a loss for both sides as we would have disharmony and ill will for years to come. My proposal was that we find middle ground between Relative Seniority and Date of Hire not the DAl version that relative seniority is the middle ground. For that matter if Relative Seniority is the middle ground for DALPA what then is the real DAL list. Staple?
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330 capt
Posts: 236
Okay, if that's what you want to believe then okay! But, no matter how you run the numbers I lose 1700 numbers by the DAL proposal and that is not the middle of the road by any means. If DAL is going to hold on to relative seniority argument and not move from that position then the SLI will end up in the hands of the arbitraitors and then come what may. The NWA side feels that they have a solid argument as does the DAL guys however, my point being, is that for either side to outright win would be a loss for both sides as we would have disharmony and ill will for years to come. My proposal was that we find middle ground between Relative Seniority and Date of Hire not the DAl version that relative seniority is the middle ground. For that matter if Relative Seniority is the middle ground for DALPA what then is the real DAL list. Staple?
#120
Okay, if that's what you want to believe then okay! But, no matter how you run the numbers I lose 1700 numbers by the DAL proposal and that is not the middle of the road by any means. If DAL is going to hold on to relative seniority argument and not move from that position then the SLI will end up in the hands of the arbitraitors and then come what may. The NWA side feels that they have a solid argument as does the DAL guys however, my point being, is that for either side to outright win would be a loss for both sides as we would have disharmony and ill will for years to come. My proposal was that we find middle ground between Relative Seniority and Date of Hire not the DAl version that relative seniority is the middle ground. For that matter if Relative Seniority is the middle ground for DALPA what then is the real DAL list. Staple?
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