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The truth about LOA 19 finally surfaces

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The truth about LOA 19 finally surfaces

Old 10-25-2008, 02:16 PM
  #11  
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No it is not. It is ratio by equipment.
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Old 10-25-2008, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JiffyLube View Post
Well, if there are 500 guys in the DC9 then 500 NWA guys should be on the bottom of the list.
I'm glad you guys are sticking to that ridiculous idea because it makes the arbitrators position to side with NWA easier. He already warned you guys that this is a merger of equals and if you don't heed his point, you'll find yourself very upset when the decision comes out.

Personally, I'd like to come to a negotiated list TO AVOID animosity between pilots. But that will be impossible if you insist on a staple. I feel comfortable going to into arbitration because it could not be worse than what Delta offered. How comfortable do you feel with arbitration? I hope you are feeling lucky...

Last edited by capncrunch; 10-25-2008 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:14 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by capncrunch View Post
I'm glad you guys are sticking to that ridiculous idea because it makes the arbitrators position to side with NWA easier. He already warned you guys that this is a merger of equals and if you don't heed his point, you'll find yourself very upset when the decision comes out.

Personally, I'd like to come to a negotiated list TO AVOID animosity between pilots. But that will be impossible if you insist on a staple. I feel comfortable going to into arbitration because it could not be worse than what Delta offered. How comfortable do you feel with arbitration? I hope you are feeling lucky...
What Capn says here is why I think it was such a tactical mistake on the part of DALPA to have proffered such an extreme list. I also agree that no arbitrator could possibly be more extreme than the DAL proposal. If you want someone to negotiate, you have to give them the feeling that negotiations are better than the alternative. The DALPA proposal does not do that.

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Old 10-25-2008, 03:55 PM
  #14  
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Carl,

I don't normally get involved with the seniority list arbitration discussions but I have to comment here on what you feel is an extreme proposal.

According to your MEC's DOH proposal, that would give NW 1470 of the top 1877 positions on the combined seniority list. I got these numbers from the seniority lists dated May 2008 for NW and Aug 2008 for DAL. These numbers include only those with a DOH thru Dec 31 1985.

Talk about extreme!!!!! I know you have said you feel DOH would not be fair to the Delta pilots, but your MEC does not agree with you!!

Denny

I echo the rest of your comments, only from the other side of the coin!!!!

Last edited by Denny Crane; 10-25-2008 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:57 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by capncrunch View Post
I'm glad you guys are sticking to that ridiculous idea because it makes the arbitrators position to side with NWA easier. He already warned you guys that this is a merger of equals and if you don't heed his point, you'll find yourself very upset when the decision comes out.

Personally, I'd like to come to a negotiated list TO AVOID animosity between pilots. But that will be impossible if you insist on a staple. I feel comfortable going to into arbitration because it could not be worse than what Delta offered. How comfortable do you feel with arbitration? I hope you are feeling lucky...
Gosh, capn, you're right, I'm sure....I'm so scared now--I wish I'd never read your post....I sure am glad you're not on the NWA negotiating team, you would stike fear into the hearts of the DAL team, and I'm sure they would "cave" immediately to your so subtly ominous and foreboding suggestion. I'm sure our team is chewing their nails down to nubs, sick with worry and anxiety over Bloch's remarks, while your team is breathing a huge sigh of relief, slapping each others backs and high-fiving because now they know they won't have to budge one millimeter off their position. Yeah, Bloch warned alright, "Talk about career expectations in this industry is a little like dreaming about income expectations and investment opportunities at a roulette table." (but I'm sure that was also meant only to "warn" DAL, right?)
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Denny Crane View Post
Carl,

I don't normally get involved with the seniority list arbitration discussions but I have to comment here on what you feel is an extreme proposal.
OK...What is your comment?

Carl
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:04 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by capncrunch View Post
I'm glad you guys are sticking to that ridiculous idea because it makes the arbitrators position to side with NWA easier. He already warned you guys that this is a merger of equals and if you don't heed his point, you'll find yourself very upset when the decision comes out.

Personally, I'd like to come to a negotiated list TO AVOID animosity between pilots. But that will be impossible if you insist on a staple. I feel comfortable going to into arbitration because it could not be worse than what Delta offered. How comfortable do you feel with arbitration? I hope you are feeling lucky...
..and in the NWA list, in the top 2,000 numbers there are 1546 NW pilots and 414 DL pilots. No, that's not extreme.
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:06 PM
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Carl,

Sorry, I edited my post. Hit the enter button and it posted before I was thru!!!! It's there now.
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Denny Crane View Post
Carl,

I don't normally get involved with the seniority list arbitration discussions but I have to comment here on what you feel is an extreme proposal.

According to your MEC's DOH proposal, that would give NW 1470 of the top 1877 positions on the combined seniority list. I got these numbers from the seniority lists dated May 2008 for NW and Aug 2008 for DAL. These numbers include only those with a DOH thru Dec 31 1985. Talk about extreme!!!!!
Yes - on the surface that does look extreme. But the proposed 10 year fence that goes along with that means that none of those 1470 positions given to NWA will be useable by any NWA pilot at the expense of any DAL pilot. Why? Because every one of those 1470 NWA pilots will be gone by then...me included.

Originally Posted by Denny Crane View Post
I know you have said you feel DOH would not be fair to the Delta pilots, but your MEC does not agree with you!!
Actually, they do agree with me. I have said that DOH would be unfair to DAL pilots without big (and I mean REALLY big fences). A 10 year fence is what I would have contemplated, in that the inequities of our proposal at the top are rendered meaningless as a result of the fence and the age of our guys at the top.

Originally Posted by Denny Crane View Post
Denny

I echo the rest of your comments, only from the other side of the coin!!!!
It doesn't surprise me that you would take the other side. But tell me: where does the DAL fence proposal mitigate the huge inequities at the top of the list, the middle of the list, and especially the 402 NWA pilots that occupy the bottom of the list?

Carl
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by alfaromeo View Post
..and in the NWA list, in the top 2,000 numbers there are 1546 NW pilots and 414 DL pilots. No, that's not extreme.
It's not extreme because our 10 year fence means that nearly every one of those NWA guys are gone in 10 years. And during the 10 years that NWA guys ARE still around, we can't exercise that seniority in any way except on our own pre-merger aircraft. We cannot excercise that seniority at the expense of any DAL pilot.

As I've asked earlier, where does the DAL fence proposal protect NWA guys in any similar fashion given the extreme inequities that exist on the DAL list from top to bottom?

Carl
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