Heyas,

And here is the critical error in your thinking. One of the arbitrator's goals, among many other things, is to ATTEMPT to provide an award within ALPA policy. HOWEVER, since DOH is not specifically excluded in the policy, it becomes a method of integration, as long as it meets the other criteria. Just because it is not mentioned in the policy, does not mean a method is excluded.

If the arbitration panel (not you, or I, or any of the other Brainiacs here) decides that the most fair and equitable method of integration is DOH, then that's what it will be.

The slides at the arbitration showed that after the 10 year fence comes down, even by the most conservative retirement estimate, the resulting two groups will be demographically matched.

If the NWA guys wanted to be complete A-holes about the whole thing, and wanted to really swing for the fence, they could have just asked for DOH, with no fences. But the fences are there to PROTECT DAL pilot's career expectations, just as they are there to protect the NWA pilot's. When the fence comes down a 330 NWA captain will have the same LOS and relative seniority as a 767-400 captain (although it should really be paired with the 777). And fences are WHAT YOU GUYS WANTED. "Fly what you brought" was the mantra we all heard for 8 months now.

But this is all OBE. I understand that a deal has already been made, and both sides will be ****ed.

Nu

Nu,

If the DL guys really wanted to be a-holes, we could have proposed a list based on W-2 earnings. It's not specifically excluded from merger policy either. (Not saying we made more, just an example) But we didn't.

The fences in DL's proposal were 5 yrs for the widebody flying, if I remember correctly, and they protected us both. It seems a little convenient that the 10 yr fence comes down just when Delta's age 65 retirements start kicking in.

We all want a fair list. I quess we will be told what is "fair" on Dec. 20th. Hope we can all have Happy Holidays!!!(politically correct, Denny Crane for President!!):D

Denny

A ten year fence does nothing but fence those aircraft. Either way, everyone moves up a number when someone retires regardless of which side that retirement comes from. The fence protects the movement in the near term that the DAL list doesnt provide. Just like your side wants protections for the aircraft you hold NOW. Are you saying you want credit for your sides aircraft, and OUR retirements?:eek: It sure sounds that way.

I dont know if there will be a fence or not but your trying to down play near term movement on the NWA side. Bottom line is both sides have "wants" and whether either side sees those "wants" has yet to be seen. I personally dont really care how fast i move up the list in 10, 20, 30 years i want the most seniority in the shortest amount of time ala the NWA retirements.

The obvious (and IMO funny) retort would be Mr. Reagan's quote to "tear down this wall". But as a fellow Boeing guy, my real feeling is "Mr Gorbachev, build this wall higher!"

Steve
Yes... if it ain't Boeing... I ain't going:cool:

Heyas Super,

And here you find where their logic falls apart. Pre-JCBA, all we heard was "bad bases, old aircraft, crappy flying" from the DAL side. You would think that REGARDLESS of the integration method, that they would say "you want 10 year fences? whoo hoo! Good deal!.

But as you point out, all of a sudden, that's not what they want. A close look at their proposal shows that it lowers the fence just as NWA retirements crank up, giving them full access to highest paying postions in NWA metal.

But it doesn't matter. The fix is in. They won't win, and neither will we.

Nu

Exactly, IF the fence was ever to happen, when the time came for the fence to come down EVERYONE will have moved up in overall seniority and the ONLY downfall for the DAL side would be that they couldn't bid our UNDESIRABLE positions that they didn't want in the first place. Therefore during that time the NWA side could benefit from OUR aircraft just as their side can with theirs. Our side would move up into OUR positions quicker because of the retirements but thats ok right? I mean afterall they're all already in their DESIRED positions.

The fence does NOTHING to hurt the DAL pilots except block them from our equipment that they didn't want in the first place.;) Overall we will ALL move up in overall seniority regardless of the fence. Its ONLY the specific positions that are fenced during the 10 years not seniority numbers. After the assumed fence, the top of the DELTA list would be mostly original DAL pilots. The fence give the NWA side time to get into the positions we wanted before the DAL guys reaped the benefits of our retirements following the tearing down of the fence.

Moot point because neither side will likely get what they want which is what makes these discussions almost pointless. ;)

Oh yeah...I forgot. If I had only read ALPA merger policy, I would have seen that mention of an equipment and pay based ratio. How could I have missed that! ;)

PS: This arbitration is not being done under ALPA merger policy. Both sides agreed to use this method which is outside ALPA merger policy.

Carl

Now that's funny...I don't care who ya are.

Carl

What do you mean Pre-JCBA? The DALPA merger team continued that mantra for the first 3 days of their presentation before the arbitrator as well.

Wonder how that worked out for 'em...Oh yes - a merger of equals. :D

Carl

[quote=NuGuy;491422]Heyas Super,

And here you find where their logic falls apart. Pre-JCBA, all we heard was "bad bases, old aircraft, crappy flying" from the DAL side. You would think that REGARDLESS of the integration method, that they would say "you want 10 year fences? whoo hoo! Good deal!.

NU,
I have the above far more from NW guys bringing it up as in your post above then from DAL guys.


They won't win, and neither will we.

I agree.

Scoop

Nu,
Why should the 330 be paired with the 777? :confused: Current 12 year Capt rates are:
A 330 - $162/hour
767-400 $181/hour

Joint payrates ratified overwhelmingly by NW Pilots:

A 330- $182
767-400 $ 189

Unless its that "Super Premium" factor which we cannot put a price on. As a matter of fact its "priceless." :)

Scoop

Okay, how about we have the Delta list and fence it for 10 years? You get the protection you wanted. I'm not trying to take anything from you, please don't try to take anything from me.

A 5 year fence does protect your movement in the near term. My point with the chart was your retirements, based on age 65, are not that much different than ours. If there is some way for you to get credit for the 204 more earlier and us to get it 3years later, I'm all for it. But the argument that you have so many more pilots retiring, I recall someone saying 1000's,before we do is falling on deaf ears over on this side because the numbers just don't support it. It seems to me that you want your cake (DOH and your retirements) and to eat it too (our retirements later).

This is just going to go back and forth and is futile on both sides. The lawyers are gonna decide this one. But it is fun to go back and forth!!!:D


I truly do look forward to flying with you all and I got the first beer!!! Gotta go pick the kid up from football practice, be back later.:D

Denny

Payrates are meaningless when comparing because all of the rates, including the "new" ones are concessionary rates. Every rate was set up based on different circumstances. Pay rates change like the wind in this job, everyone knows that ;)

the only thing both sides agreed too was to modify the timeline and the number of arbitrators. Something allowed by ALPA merger policy. As far as how the arbitrators rule, I qoute from the SLI process agreement:

"The issue for resolution before the Arbitrators will be the fair and equitable integration of the pre-merger Delta and Northwest seniority lists consistent with ALPA Merger and Fragmentation Policy ("ALPA Merger Policy"). In making this determination, the Arbitrators will be bound by the pre-arbitration statement of resolved issues presented by the Representatives and will determine the remaining open issues with respect to an integrated seniority list."

I can promise you one thing Scoop - NWA pilots ratified the JCBA IN SPITE of the way those pay rates combined aircraft. The 747 being paid the same as a 777 even though the 747 carries over 100 more passengers made it pretty clear that DAL couldn't tolerate NWA operating an aircraft that would pay more than a 777. It was made all the more grating now that DALPA has made pay part of the equation for the SLI proposal.

That pay thing was a real and obvious sore point, but it was one of those "greater good" votes.

Carl

We've been over this already Xray. Consistent with ALPA merger policy is different from being IN ALPA merger policy. This arbitration is outside the process. We're plowing new ground

Carl

[quote=Carl Spackler;491496]I can promise you one thing Scoop - NWA pilots ratified the JCBA IN SPITE of the way those pay rates combined aircraft. The 747 being paid the same as a 777 even though the 747 carries over 100 more passengers made it pretty clear that DAL couldn't tolerate NWA operating an aircraft that would pay more than a 777. It was made all the more grating now that DALPA has made pay part of the equation for the SLI proposal.

Carl,
The only other US passenger carrier that flies both the 747 and 777 is UAL and guess what the pay rate is? The same! This rate was calculated by a single unified ALPA Pilot group who realized the 777 is the future and 747 is the past. Why would the UAL pilot group commit such a travesty? Could they not see what the NW pilots see, which is what exactly, that compensation should be based on seats exclusivley and not take other factors such as the newest equipment into account.? I hope not, because planes are certianly going to keep getting newer but not necessarily bigger.
And Super it was the same before the concessions. Lets face it the 747 was the biggest and best in 1970, now its just big and old. It is no longer the biggest, it doesn't fly the farthest or carry the most. In its heday it was the King, the biggest baddest thing around but then again thats when the F-4 ruled the skies.

Scoop

............

You would have a point were it not for the fact that this same pay disparity exists on the A330 as well. Also, United didn't use this pair up of different aircraft to most advantage part of the seniority list. I think it was a bad tactic involving short term thinking. If in the future we get the A380 or something like it, the company will be able to come to us and say: you should get paid the same as the 777 because it was OK for you back in 2008.

Oh well, water under the bridge now. Speaking of water, got to go do an ocean crossing now. Later.

Carl

You are right - water under the bridge. Have a good flight. :)

Scoop

Um no...

When my mortgage is due my payrate is most decidedly not meaningless. How your pilot group came to arrive at their rate may be water under the bridge, but what that rate currently stands at is huge. Both in QOL and what they may or may not bring to the table. As long as one of the companies involved in a merger is not "circling the bowl" as neither of us are, then from where I stand it matters not how much NW or DL made in the last quarter. I care about how much of that profit you saw in your paycheck. DAL's quarterly reports don't mean a damn to me as long as they are black. What my W-2 says reflects the QOL of my wife & kids. So I expect that W-2 and QOL to stay exactly the same or better than they were before.

Why wouldn't they? This aquisition is a good thing for everybody right?

yeah, keep believing that. You know, of all the stuff I have read by NWA pilots on various forums, you are the only one who seems to think that ALPA merger policy does not apply here.

Carl,
You really need to start understanding the mindset of the Delta bureaucracy. Regardless of the fact that RA was former NW and half the senior executive suite is former NW, the management minions, much like the eunuchs of the old Chinese Emperors, are the true decision makers.

The ATL airport is incapable of handling the A380, and there are no plans to ever modify the infastructure to do so. Accordingly, DL will not operate the A380 because, even though LAX and JFK can handle it, ATL can't and therefore DL's eunuchs, not being able to see beyond the borders of their fiefdoms, will determine that we don't need it.

The 380 is like the Concorde, just bigger. It is built and owned for reasons of national pride. It isn't a money maker.

If it was about profit, do you think Airlines would be installing hotel rooms, showers, a jacuzzi and spa facilities?

Delta is here to make money. We need it to make money.

disregard...

[QUOTE=Scoop;491522]Scoop wasn't the travesty the concessionary contract that brought the 2 payscales together?

I thought United used to max out at around $350 for the 747 and around $300 for the 777 prior to the concessions?

Why would there be two different payrates for those airplanes?

Isn't the A330-300 actually larger than both the 767-400 and 777?

max T/O weight for the A330-300 is about 507,000. Max T/O for the 777 is about 750,000. For the 764 its about 450,000.

[quote=Eric Stratton;492045]Eric,
The concessions lowered all payrates the same %.

Scoop

I was thinking seating capacity over T/O weight.

That still doesn't explain why there is a pay difference between the A330 and 764.

no it doesn't. The simple answer to your question is the 764 and the 330 pay what they do because it was negotiated that way and we voted yes to it. If you don't like it, vote no next time.

Well that certainly is the elementary school answer but I guess I was looking for more of the college level answer.

You can't vote on something you aren't allowed to vote on.

the pay rates were a part of the JCBA. We voted on the JCBA. The NWA pilots voted about 87% yes for it.

and now that I think about it, don't the 330 and 764 pay the same in the JCBA?

Eric doesn't work for NWA or DAL. He is an innocent, objective bystander. :)

Eric you "innocent bystander"...might I add "naive" to that description, too? The pre-merger payrates on NW's 32 A330s were only $1.50/hr more than DL's 80 767- 300s and 137 757s. ( that's 217 DL widebody/ medium narrowbody aircraft paying virtually the same, $160+ 1.5/hr., as 32 NW widebody aircraft, that is, DL had nearly 7 times...that's right!...count 'em!...SEVEN TIMES the number of aircraft that NW had in that pay range.) The pre-merger pay rates on the 21 DL 767-400s were approx. $18-20/hr. more than the 767-300/A330, about the same as the NW 747s. The 10 DL 777s of course, payed the most of all. The reckoning that is done to find a fair SLI is based entirely on:......(suspense)......What the two respective pilot groups BRING (in terms of quality jobs) to the merger!!!!! Now, that preamble over with, -to actually answer your question....those payrates on those particular aircraft were all we (DL and NW) could "get" out of management. To have set the 747 pay from the JPWA as the highest and then "rationalized" payrates on smaller aircraft based on that, -would have resulted in significant pay CUTS for the 777 and 76-400. (we all know how well that would have "worked"!) As it was, though, the 777 and 76-400 pay stayed the same, and the 747 and A330 rates were RAISED to equal (or nearly so) them. (the adage "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" comes to mind) Every single NW pilot (100%) experienced a raise in payrates from the JPWA. The overwhelming "war-cry" from NW before and during those contract negotiations was "PARITY" (ie. a "raise" up to what the DL pilots had). NW got parity, but lately has tried, very disingenuously, to convince arbitrators that their raise up to parity was actually a decline to parity. And, last May and June, all the embellished rhetoric, hand-wringing, and gnashing of teeth about the injustice of a "B" scale was actually a fiendishly clever, Machiavellian attempt by the NW MEC to secure a "worse" and "lower paying" contract! (a devilishly duplicitous endeavor in which they not only succeeded beyond their wildest dreams, but won the overwhelming support (87%) of their unsuspecting rank-and-file membership!)

Nice Numbers. :)

Wiggy,

Remember Shakespeare's great saying: "Brevity is the soul of wit"?

Try learning to say more with less.

Carl

Carl,
Eric did ask for the "college level" answer.:)
Anyway as you very wisely said earlier - it is water under the bridge, the payrates are what they are. But since most of us are making less than 250K we will all be getting our big Obama promised taxcut.:rolleyes:

Scoop - waiting for the "Oh yeah, about that tax cut..."

[QUOTE=Scoop;492162]Scoop,

The 747 and 777 did have different pay rates prior to the concessions at UAL. This was according to what Air Inc had put out. It had the 747 at around $285 and the 777 around $265.

Eric

All you had to say is was, "we wanted to keep their pay down so that it wouldn't look like they were bringing quality jobs over. That way we could do better in the SLI."

I think we all know nwa got the bigger pay raise. Get over it. You both had concessionary contracts and this is a combined new one and having a larger airplane with a smaller payscale seems bizarre. Like xray678 said, they might now have the same pay.

By the way, are you trying to say that the number of airplanes you have helps determines it's pay rate?