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Old 12-12-2008, 07:47 AM   #131  
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The five year fence would have helped if the a330 was fenced. The only guys that fence helps are the senior A330 captians that will be able to bid 747-400. It may be possible that DAL guys do not want to fly the 330 and not bid it so that it cycles down to me. Who knows Hope so. Also the age 65 thing cuts into to the effect of the 5 year fence in that approx 3 years of the fence guys are not hitting 65 yet. Hopefully those guys go earlier than 65. Yes I may be able to bid 767 capt and that may not be all bad. Ah yes, there could be a chance to fly 787 but my guess is that the 787 or the 777 will replace the 400 not moving anyone up. Hope I am really wrong about that. My loss is where I end up at the end which post merger is 13% vs premerger of 3.5%. That translates into a lot of bucks and huge quality of life. Its done, took a good hit, and time to move on. This used to be a great career and you would tell young folks that they should become airline pilots. Since 9/11 it has turned in to just a job, can't recommend it anymore. With this list my job seems to have gotten worse not better, but maybe I am wrong about that. Hopefully things will turn around. Good luck to us all and may the economy turn around.

keenster
How are you able to calculate your pre and post merger percentages at retirement? If you have a seniority list like that or a spreadsheet or a .pdf, can you please share it? I am trying to do that as well, but I can't seem to get NWA retirements by year from anyone on the NWA side.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:08 AM   #132  
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Originally Posted by PackTrip View Post
How are you able to calculate your pre and post merger percentages at retirement? If you have a seniority list like that or a spreadsheet or a .pdf, can you please share it? I am trying to do that as well, but I can't seem to get NWA retirements by year from anyone on the NWA side.
Pack,

I think anyone from NWA who is citing retirement percetages or numbers is getting it from that website (ezopenboard.com), where the creator has a program that runs the numbers for each individual pilot. It's not personal. We just don't have that information. At least I think we don't.

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:44 AM   #133  
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How are you able to calculate your pre and post merger percentages at retirement? If you have a seniority list like that or a spreadsheet or a .pdf, can you please share it? I am trying to do that as well, but I can't seem to get NWA retirements by year from anyone on the NWA side.
Yeah, ezopenboard is where we are getting it but that only shows retirements by year senior to you....not the full picture. From a spreadsheet of our last seniority list I can give the following numbers, but not by each year:

Total NWA Retirements(age 65) in total years from 12/12/2008:

1 year: 17
5 years: 192
10 years:1274
15 years: 2856
20 years: 4030
25 years: 4828

I am a 1996 hire. Almost exactly 1000 DAL pilots hired at DAL after I was hired at NWA are now senior to me. HOWEVER, only about 130 of those are also younger than me.That tells me that focusing on the number of DAL guys senior to you now vs. DOH does not tell the full story.

I initially gained 2% relative seniority, HOWEVER, 12 years from now I will have lost 8% relative seniority. So,that means down the road lots of DAL pilots will benefit from NWA attrition. HOWEVER, I end up at age 65 at the SAME relative seniority. Instead of retiring around #50 at NWA I will retire around #180 combined. I am not complaining at all. But this illustrates how different positions on the list and pilot age result in very different outcomes. No way to please everyone right? The fact that I hear pilots on BOTH sides griping about it tells me it was probably about right.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:58 AM   #134  
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Heyas,

Guys, I tried to point this out during the arbitration hearings, but the loss of relative seniority would have happened whether the arbitrators used the NWA DOH proposal or what we got. No one would listen.

I ran my EZOP with both the DOH list and the arbitrated award, and I lost exactly the same amount of relative seniority 5,10, 15 and 20 years out as compared with the stand-alone NWA list. The only solace from that method was that I would have been some 600 numbers more senior than I am now.

The ONLY way this loss of relative seniority could have been prevented was with a dynamic list. Even if we had gotten the DOH list, you would have taken the same hit.

I feel Keensters pain, but there is nothing you can do about it. Lot's of careers these days have become jobs. My ex was a vet, and there was a huge retirement boom of older vets that started about 10 years ago. But instead of selling their practices individually, a couple corporations came in and started buying up practices left and right, and now they "set the market" for vet compensation.

These days, new vets come out of school expecting that sort of lowered compensation. Yet, they still ponied up a large amount of cash to go to vet school (240k or more in some cases), and will top out near 130-140k. Many are trust fund kids (or are 250K in debt), and do it part time as part of a two income family, so there is no support to get fees up. But when asked why they do it, they say "for the love of it".

Sound familiar to anyone?

Nu
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:45 AM   #135  
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The title of this thread is as stupid as the one that says NWA won.

Please KILL this thread.

Thank you...

Carl
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:55 AM   #136  
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Feel free to report threads/posts that violate TOS. Be sure to state your case as to the TOS violation.

I'll give you a hint, though. "stupid title" is hardly a good reason to lock a thread.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:38 PM   #137  
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Originally Posted by PackTrip View Post
How are you able to calculate your pre and post merger percentages at retirement? If you have a seniority list like that or a spreadsheet or a .pdf, can you please share it? I am trying to do that as well, but I can't seem to get NWA retirements by year from anyone on the NWA side.
Go to easy open board and it gives you the retirements for NWA. Also has a seniority crystal ball for the new DAL list. Shows you where you end up based on your retirement date. Great site:https://www.ezopenboard.com/members/ Hope this helps.

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Old 12-12-2008, 06:08 PM   #138  
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Go to easy open board and it gives you the retirements for NWA. Also has a seniority crystal ball for the new DAL list. Shows you where you end up based on your retirement date. Great site:https://www.ezopenboard.com/members/ Hope this helps.

Keenster
You have to have an NWA employee number to sign up there....no Delta guys allowed.

I got what I wanted...check this out (copied from the other thread I put up with this topic).

These are age 65 retirements for Delta - the only sure thing.

2008 0
2009 0
2010 0
2011 0
2012 2
2013 58
2014 71
2015 87
2016 131
2017 157
2018 217

That is the end of ten years - a total of 723 Delta age 65 retirements.

NWA retirements for the next 10 years:

2009 9
2010 8
2011 15
2012
15
2013
22
2014
124
2015
182
2016 199
2017 210
2018 231

That is 1,015 NWA retirements over the next ten years (From 2009-2018) vs. Delta's 723...So the difference between the two carriers (over ten years) is only 292 numbers.

After 2020 (12 years) a major shift occurs and DAL retirements far exceed NWA retirements for the rest of all of our careers.

2019
DAL 266
NWA 258
2020
DAL 334
NWA 288
2021
DAL 447
NWA 287

So one could argue that DAL guys benefit (albeit slightly - 292 numbers) for the first ten years since they share in the advancement from the NWA retirements...and then NWA guys benefit from year 12 onward from sharing in DAL's retirements (in comparison to the advancement each pilot would have had at their own stand-alone carrier).
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:20 PM   #139  
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I see 320 FOB's thread...he makes a great point - If a guy reaches 65 and he is junior to you...you don't move up. So the numbers I posted are only accurate for a young guy. Older guys (with guys junior to them that are older than them) will not realize the full benefit of those numbers.

It really does take a computer program (with customized results like you guys have access to) to see what it really means to an individual pilot...but generally speaking, what I have posted is accurate - negligible difference in attrition for the first ten years for all of us...and a nice bump in the numbers from year 12 onward (For those of you that have that many years left).

Remember also that it was only in the last three hiring cycles where guys older than about 34 were even hired.
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Old 12-12-2008, 07:08 PM   #140  
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That is 1,015 NWA retirements over the next ten years (From 2009-2018) vs. Delta's 723...So the difference between the two carriers (over ten years) is only 292 numbers.
PackTrip, I appreciate your efforts to post these numbers. I do. For someone who is so into numbers (as I am myself), it'd hurt a lot less if you stopped trying to trivialize the difference in retirements. It doesn't take a statistician to see that those retirement numbers when changed into percentages represent 20% of the premerger NWA list and only 10% of the premerger DAL list over the next 10 years. In other words NWA had double the attrition coming when looked at with percentages, which is the only accurate way to view these things. I won't even get into the medical & pension as motivation to retire at 60 debate but that would have accelerated the NWA side even more.

The reason DAL retirements start to exceed NWA's so much eventually is simply because there's hardly any NWA pilots left. To see a true comparision you'd have to change the numbers into a percentage of remaining premerger groups. You'll see 10-20 years from now it doesn't take many NWA retirements at all to match DALs attrition as a value of percentage of remaining pilots from each group.

I, and many other NWA guys, lost a TON of career progression and that caused me to lose sleep a few nights so far this week. Just to give you an idea I was slated to retire in the single digits, now I'm projected to retire around 300. I would have been a narrowbody CA in about 4 years now I'll be lucky if it's 10. Still not shabby but we can all agree it is a significant blow to career expectations, a blow that starts at SOC. I'm taking the advice of the wise old men on here and looking on the brightside and trying not to dwell on it, but do us a favor and stop pretending DAL guys had anywhere near the short term attrition NWA guys had. It's insulting to our intelligence, most of us have already crunched the numbers and know better.

Now here's to hoping we all benefit for our sacrifices and turn this new airline into the best airline in the world.
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