Dal Won
12-11-2008, 09:28 AM
#122
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: B767 FO
Posts: 79
Originally Posted by skysdlimit
Pre-merger NW 747-400 Capt ...$177/HR
Pre-merger DL 777 Capt... $191/HR
(Source APC)
Post merger DL 777/747-400 pay $191/HR
Jan 1, 2009...$200/HR
(Source JCBA paytables)
Yep...you're screwed. I'd quit now. You're going to have a heart attack if you let making more money get to you. BTW all of your "facts" from your quote are not correct. Delta management released the nugget that the 787 might not be ready and DL may alter some future deliveries the "Delta boys" were just repeating this real "fact".
"DOH & seniority is everything...everything." Are you for real? I'd like to think there is more than this job out there.
You may be right that there could be hard times coming and I agree about the "smoke and mirrors". I once heard and agree this profession is a "great job and a terrible career". Furloughs?...been there done that in the mid 90's.
Pre-merger DL 777 Capt... $191/HR
(Source APC)
Post merger DL 777/747-400 pay $191/HR
Jan 1, 2009...$200/HR
(Source JCBA paytables)
Yep...you're screwed. I'd quit now. You're going to have a heart attack if you let making more money get to you. BTW all of your "facts" from your quote are not correct. Delta management released the nugget that the 787 might not be ready and DL may alter some future deliveries the "Delta boys" were just repeating this real "fact".
"DOH & seniority is everything...everything." Are you for real? I'd like to think there is more than this job out there.
You may be right that there could be hard times coming and I agree about the "smoke and mirrors". I once heard and agree this profession is a "great job and a terrible career". Furloughs?...been there done that in the mid 90's.
Originally Posted by Superpilot92
Ya'll crack me up! 
LOL
It's a done deal, nothing is going to change it. Time to move on and make the best off it. Look around the industry, it could be much worse.
Cheers fellas
LOL It's a done deal, nothing is going to change it. Time to move on and make the best off it. Look around the industry, it could be much worse.
Cheers fellas
Redtail...a three man impartial arbitration panel decided that Date of Hire was not applicable in this case.
We are all one now. You'll do just fine, RedTail. Are you a commuter? If so, where do you live? Because I'm hearing 747's out of Atlanta. But skysdlimit is right...you are screwed...despite your pay raise and the fences that protect your job, you are screwed, so you had best retire...or at least keep stressing about this and ruin your health - so that you can get out of my way so I can move up.
12-11-2008, 10:11 AM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 330Fo
Posts: 215
Redtail,
My point is not whether it is fair or not fair. Trust me, the idea that I am now a thousand numbers junior to somebody that was hired at Dal nine months after me is a little hard to digest. The arbitraitors in the end ruled that the Dal date of hire was of higher value and worth than the Nwa date of hire. Period. Do I like it? No, but it is what it is and I, for one, am not going to turn into a bitter person and dwell on it for the next twenty years. I'll stay on the 330 until some dal guy bumps me and then I'll go to msp on the 57 and fly anc or whatever. My point is there is no sense in spending the rest of our days being bitter about it.
In the long run who made out better? Well, time will tell. More info will come out as time passes about what happened behind the scenes. We knew last spring what Dal's attitude was towards us, and it didn't change obviously per their one and only proposal, and thus we worked behind the scenes with Cal which would have left Dal out of the Skyteam not Cal. Nwa had the written agreements with Klm and the goldenshare at Cal thus we would kept the alliance with Klm/airfrance, leaving Dal as standalone or with United. Would the seniority have worked better with Cal? These are questions that will never be answered and should no longer be asked. This is where we are and my suggestion is let's just move on.
My point is not whether it is fair or not fair. Trust me, the idea that I am now a thousand numbers junior to somebody that was hired at Dal nine months after me is a little hard to digest. The arbitraitors in the end ruled that the Dal date of hire was of higher value and worth than the Nwa date of hire. Period. Do I like it? No, but it is what it is and I, for one, am not going to turn into a bitter person and dwell on it for the next twenty years. I'll stay on the 330 until some dal guy bumps me and then I'll go to msp on the 57 and fly anc or whatever. My point is there is no sense in spending the rest of our days being bitter about it.
In the long run who made out better? Well, time will tell. More info will come out as time passes about what happened behind the scenes. We knew last spring what Dal's attitude was towards us, and it didn't change obviously per their one and only proposal, and thus we worked behind the scenes with Cal which would have left Dal out of the Skyteam not Cal. Nwa had the written agreements with Klm and the goldenshare at Cal thus we would kept the alliance with Klm/airfrance, leaving Dal as standalone or with United. Would the seniority have worked better with Cal? These are questions that will never be answered and should no longer be asked. This is where we are and my suggestion is let's just move on.
12-11-2008, 12:05 PM
#124
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: ATL717A
Posts: 890
Originally Posted by Redtail
You titled the thread...becasue that what was on your heart and what you felt to be true.
We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.
You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.
We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.
You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.
I've seen a lot of opinions here, on the DALPA forum, and spoken with no less than 25 DL and NW pilots. Except for you, to a man, I get "we'll make it work", "let's wait and see", "we're gonna kick butt", and many shoulder shrugs. There's not a thing you or I can do about it now - the bell has been rung. I really haven't heard how bad anybody got "screwed", except from you.
Many of your comments thus far have been assumptions, and some of your statements of fact have been flat-out wrong.
Obviously, no one likes losing seniority in this business...I don't enjoy seeing my number over 3,300 higher than it was Sunday, but I realize DOH means nothing.
You now are a senior pilot at the largest and most powerful airline on the planet. IMHO, move on and enjoy the ride. Being an airline pilot doesn't define who you are - it's just what you do.
Peace
J
Last edited by Jughead; 12-11-2008 at 03:23 PM.
12-11-2008, 12:39 PM
#125
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: DAL A320 CA
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by Opus
Redtail,
My point is not whether it is fair or not fair. Trust me, the idea that I am now a thousand numbers junior to somebody that was hired at Dal nine months after me is a little hard to digest. The arbitraitors in the end ruled that the Dal date of hire was of higher value and worth than the Nwa date of hire. Period. Do I like it? No, but it is what it is and I, for one, am not going to turn into a bitter person and dwell on it for the next twenty years. I'll stay on the 330 until some dal guy bumps me and then I'll go to msp on the 57 and fly anc or whatever. My point is there is no sense in spending the rest of our days being bitter about it.
In the long run who made out better? Well, time will tell. More info will come out as time passes about what happened behind the scenes. We knew last spring what Dal's attitude was towards us, and it didn't change obviously per their one and only proposal, and thus we worked behind the scenes with Cal which would have left Dal out of the Skyteam not Cal.
Nwa had the written agreements with Klm and the goldenshare at Cal thus we would kept the alliance with Klm/airfrance, leaving Dal as standalone or with United. Would the seniority have worked better with Cal? These are questions that will never be answered and should no longer be asked. This is where we are and my suggestion is let's just move on.
My point is not whether it is fair or not fair. Trust me, the idea that I am now a thousand numbers junior to somebody that was hired at Dal nine months after me is a little hard to digest. The arbitraitors in the end ruled that the Dal date of hire was of higher value and worth than the Nwa date of hire. Period. Do I like it? No, but it is what it is and I, for one, am not going to turn into a bitter person and dwell on it for the next twenty years. I'll stay on the 330 until some dal guy bumps me and then I'll go to msp on the 57 and fly anc or whatever. My point is there is no sense in spending the rest of our days being bitter about it.
In the long run who made out better? Well, time will tell. More info will come out as time passes about what happened behind the scenes. We knew last spring what Dal's attitude was towards us, and it didn't change obviously per their one and only proposal, and thus we worked behind the scenes with Cal which would have left Dal out of the Skyteam not Cal.
Nwa had the written agreements with Klm and the goldenshare at Cal thus we would kept the alliance with Klm/airfrance, leaving Dal as standalone or with United. Would the seniority have worked better with Cal? These are questions that will never be answered and should no longer be asked. This is where we are and my suggestion is let's just move on.
For clarification.. just realize some of us pre-merger DAL pilots are behind pre-merger NWA pilots with a junior DOH and fell backwards in relative seniority (I believe mainly around the 50th percentile...my case anyway). So I guess my DOH wasn't exactly higher value than some pre-merger NWA. Generalized statements like yours are usually not totally true. This case is a good point. I am a late 1991 DAL hire behind many 1995 NWA hires. It is what it is. I personally am glad we merged with you guys and not CAL and definitely not LCC or UAL (I think there is some dysfunction going on with both those groups). NWA is probably the only major airline that the DOJ would have allowed a merger with due to overlap. I think I heard or read we only had 12 overlapping city pairs. I may be wrong...my wife tells me I'm wrong alot. However, we are now one monster of an global airline to contend with. I want to move on also but many on both sides see only their side.
BTW, do we get a mulligan? Lets do date of hire... I would be almost 300 numbers senior than I am now...hummm where do you suppose that number came from?
12-11-2008, 12:41 PM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
Originally Posted by Redtail
You titled the thread...becasue that what was on your heart and what you felt to be true.
We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.
You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.
We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.
You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.
12-11-2008, 02:02 PM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 330Fo
Posts: 215
sky,
Well said. I had not realized that any Dal pilot lost seniority in terms of date of hire. I guess my main point is that hey, it is what it is, I really hope we can move on. If any dal guys bid the 330 I hope we will have better things to discuss than 1800whahwhahwhah about the seniority.
Well said. I had not realized that any Dal pilot lost seniority in terms of date of hire. I guess my main point is that hey, it is what it is, I really hope we can move on. If any dal guys bid the 330 I hope we will have better things to discuss than 1800whahwhahwhah about the seniority.
12-11-2008, 03:15 PM
#128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 329
Well at first look I lost 500 plus numbers to a Delta pilots 3 yrs my junior.and that was tough . But when I looked at the final list at age 65 my final number ends up the same as if I was still NWA,below number 50, all those delta guys are all retired and I virtually end up the same. So in the end for me it is not DAL won or NWA won, I won, because I was fortunate to be hired young have my retirment for now, and still have a Job.
12-12-2008, 04:15 AM
#129
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: DAL A320 CA
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by Opus
sky,
Well said. I had not realized that any Dal pilot lost seniority in terms of date of hire. I guess my main point is that hey, it is what it is, I really hope we can move on. If any dal guys bid the 330 I hope we will have better things to discuss than 1800whahwhahwhah about the seniority.
Well said. I had not realized that any Dal pilot lost seniority in terms of date of hire. I guess my main point is that hey, it is what it is, I really hope we can move on. If any dal guys bid the 330 I hope we will have better things to discuss than 1800whahwhahwhah about the seniority.
I promise not to bid the 330 unless it comes to ATL and I can hold senior Captain, then all bets are off.
Well got to go fly...
12-12-2008, 05:56 AM
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: FO forever
Posts: 413
Originally Posted by wiggy
With a fence on the whale, you should be able to exercise your original seniority rights at NW for a period of 5 years, and you will have original NW seniority for the 787. DOH would have given you a huge windfall at the expense of DL pilots.
keenster
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