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Old 05-04-2010, 07:02 PM   #71  
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Originally Posted by jsled View Post
It goes by bodies in seats. UAL has xx w/b positions, CAL has xx. After the integration, those ratios should be about the same and at the top of the list. It doesn't matter what the pilots within those numbers actually fly/bid. Does that make sense?

You're good.


thor- A nod to career expectations will be given in regards to retirements. I don't know much about UAL or CAL projected retirement numbers. If they are basically equal, it may be a wash.

Expect weighted category ratios.
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:03 PM   #72  
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Can anyone confirm, or deny, that the dissenting opinion of the Nicolau Award was written by a member of the CAL Merger Committee?

Confirmed!

But............

His dissent was that the furloughed pilots whom had been recalled(approx 300) between the time of the merger announcement and the date of the award were considered furloughed and put below the jr AWA pilot, God Bless him. No arbitrator has ever suggested or dissented, since WWII, that furloughed pilots be placed ahead of working pilots on an SLI. ALL CAL pilots will be recalled before any SLI agreement. CAL starts recalling this month.
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:11 PM   #73  
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Originally Posted by cactusdog16 View Post
The main reason for relative seniority being on one side of the windfall spectrum is the preponderance of widebodies at UAL and career expectations. .
Smoking Crack.

Using your rationale, glad nobody is merging with Evergreen. Widebodies only enhances career expectation if it pays more. CAL's 767's pay more than UAL's whales.
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:19 PM   #74  
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No crack needed. You have 46 widebodies. Do you think it's fair to do straight r/s if half of UAL's w/b captains end up junior to CAL 737 captains? I believe this integration will take into account Status and Category...at least thats what ALPA merger policy says.


e. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable integrated seniority list is reached. Factors to be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, shall include but not be limited to the following:

(1) Career Expectations.

(2) Longevity.

(3) Status and category.
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:29 PM   #75  
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Widebodies only enhances career expectation if it pays more. CAL's 767's pay more than UAL's whales.
Current pay does not matter when we will be negotiating a JCBA.

Do you think the quality-of-life is better on UAL's whales or CAL's 737s? Or doesn't that matter to you?

My current career expectation is to be a 777/787/747 Captain in 10-15 years, with a darn good QOL. My expectation is NOT to be a 737 driver until age 65. It is my hope that the SLI does not adversely affect that expectation too severely.

Last edited by cactusdog16; 05-04-2010 at 07:51 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:04 PM   #76  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp View Post
You're good.


thor- A nod to career expectations will be given in regards to retirements. I don't know much about UAL or CAL projected retirement numbers. If they are basically equal, it may be a wash.

Expect weighted category ratios.
I doubt they are considering CAL hired approx. 1500 pilots out of the 4800 on their list. Chances are many are younger than the junior United guys.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:06 PM   #77  
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[quote=jsled;806488]No crack needed. You have 46 wide bodies. Do you think it's fair to do straight r/s if half of UAL's w/b captains end up junior to CAL 737 captains? I believe this integration will take into account Status and Category...at least that's what ALPA merger policy says.

That's what fences are for JSLED. Flew heavies in the AF for 15 years and couldn't care less about flying UAL's ancient WB's for 76 pay. Fence them for 25 years if you like. Won't bother me a bit, especially if they pay what Glen pays to fly them. That's from a pilot's perspective.

From a management perspective, the UAL fleet is probably the most impressive of all US Carriers. UAL brings a pride in the profession that I hold in high regard. I feel that it is a shame what the BK judges and Tilton did to your company and you deserve a lot better.

In all honesty, I look forward to UAL unionism in our airline. I hope you get back all that Tilton gave away to make this merger happen, but hope that you don't seek to get it from CAL pilots.

AS a USAir guy, I hated the Niche award. As a result, I left a 6 year 767 f/o position to start work at CAL for a shameful $29/hr because the thought of being 2,000 numbers jr to a guy hired 6 years after me nauseated me. Relative Sr in UAL/CAL would be bad, but not as bad as I have experienced.

I sincerely hope that UAL and CAL pilots spend the money to buy the best lawyers and put this SLI behind us through arbitration. With your work rules, our scope and 500+ retirements/yr starting in 2013, we should be able to declare victory in under a decade by keeping our UAL at 750 aircraft as opposed to 550 fed by 1,000 70/90 seat rj's. I realize that UAL pilots have given back more than CAL pilots ever had. But we can't try to get it back from each other. Put up big fences to protect your impressive fleet and our impressive advancement, all the whilst providing a good product and we shall be successful.

Coming back fro Mil leave next month. I am so looking forward to having the UAL self-esteem in my Pilot group.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:24 PM   #78  
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How about a NW/Republic type deal? A 15-20 year fence. CAL can keep their EWR, CLE, IAH and Guam bases and UAL keeps JFK, IAD, ORD, DEN, LAX, SFO, SEA. CAL flies its route authority it had pre merger and UAL flies it's route authority pre merger. Or better yet, hope this deal falls apart and UAL grows back to its former size through internal growth.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:27 PM   #79  
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Originally Posted by cactus 16 View Post
Current pay does not matter when we will be negotiating a JCBA.

Do you think the quality-of-life is better on UAL's whales or CAL's 737s? Or doesn't that matter to you?

My current career expectation is to be a 777/787/747 Captain in 10-15 years, with a darn good QOL. My expectation is NOT to be a 737 driver until age 65. It is my hope that the SLI does not adversely affect that expectation too severely.
I don't mean to offend Dog. But IMHO, expectation doesn't hold much water in a UAL/CAL fight. I expected to be an A-330 CA at USAir by now when I left the USAF for them in '98. In 15 years, I would like to be a reserve, by choice, 757/A-320 CA who flies once every 90 days. Career expectations are just like derivatives, smoke and mirrors. I was a 737 CA when I got activated this time last year. If I keep my relative Sr, that's what I'll be after the SLI. With regard to the furloughs, been there done that. With regard to career expectations vs a UAL furloughee, I KNOW I can expect 76hrs, reserve, by choice, pay @ $108/ hr, next Thursday at midnight. What can a furloughee expect?

From me a furloughee can expect that I will not fly one second over guarrantee or have 1 minute more than a month's sick time until they are made whole.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:36 PM   #80  
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[QUOTE=A320fumes;806523]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsled View Post
No crack needed. You have 46 wide bodies. Do you think it's fair to do straight r/s if half of UAL's w/b captains end up junior to CAL 737 captains? I believe this integration will take into account Status and Category...at least that's what ALPA merger policy says.

That's what fences are for JSLED. Flew heavies in the AF for 15 years and couldn't care less about flying UAL's ancient WB's for 76 pay. Fence them for 25 years if you like. Won't bother me a bit, especially if they pay what Glen pays to fly them. That's from a pilot's perspective.

From a management perspective, the UAL fleet is probably the most impressive of all US Carriers. UAL brings a pride in the profession that I hold in high regard. I feel that it is a shame what the BK judges and Tilton did to your company and you deserve a lot better.

In all honesty, I look forward to UAL unionism in our airline. I hope you get back all that Tilton gave away to make this merger happen, but hope that you don't seek to get it from CAL pilots.

AS a USAir guy, I hated the Niche award. As a result, I left a 6 year 767 f/o position to start work at CAL for a shameful $29/hr because the thought of being 2,000 numbers jr to a guy hired 6 years after me nauseated me. Relative Sr in UAL/CAL would be bad, but not as bad as I have experienced.

I sincerely hope that UAL and CAL pilots spend the money to buy the best lawyers and put this SLI behind us through arbitration. With your work rules, our scope and 500+ retirements/yr starting in 2013, we should be able to declare victory in under a decade by keeping our UAL at 750 aircraft as opposed to 550 fed by 1,000 70/90 seat rj's. I realize that UAL pilots have given back more than CAL pilots ever had. But we can't try to get it back from each other. Put up big fences to protect your impressive fleet and our impressive advancement, all the whilst providing a good product and we shall be successful.

Coming back fro Mil leave next month. I am so looking forward to having the UAL self-esteem in my Pilot group.
If it went relative seniority wouldn't that happen to the junior united pilots?
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