Merged CAL/UAL seniority lists
05-05-2010, 05:50 AM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: EMB-145
Posts: 427
Originally Posted by newarkblows
You supported CAL and UAL pilots getting priority over regionals while jumpseating on mainline then it is very easy to propose Regionals getting priority on other regionals jumpseats.
05-05-2010, 06:37 AM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
[quote=jsled;806610]
I expect our arbitrated sli will closely resemble the NWA/DAL award...........What we need to focus on is the JCBA!!
I think you are right on both counts. The sooner both merger committees and pilot groups realize that the fundamental building block for creating an integrated seniority list in this instance will be category/status ratios, the sooner you can get to reaching at least a conceptual agreement on the SLI (let the arbitrator fine tune it if you must). And the sooner you can do that, the sooner you can focus on your JCBA.
Originally Posted by A320fumes
I expect our arbitrated sli will closely resemble the NWA/DAL award...........What we need to focus on is the JCBA!!
05-05-2010, 06:37 AM
#93
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Originally Posted by cactusmike
A320, yoiu make me laugh. You act like like UAL will stay on their payscale after the merger. You will have a joint contract in a year and those whales will pay a lot more than your 767.
You were angry at being placed below AWA pilots when you spent most of your time at US Air furloughed? GMAFB. Now you are trying to get ahead of UAL pilots that have been flying larger equipment for a lot longer than you have been employed at CAL. Hey, at least you made a good career move.
You were angry at being placed below AWA pilots when you spent most of your time at US Air furloughed? GMAFB. Now you are trying to get ahead of UAL pilots that have been flying larger equipment for a lot longer than you have been employed at CAL. Hey, at least you made a good career move.
CAL management told UAL to right-size itself if it wanted to merge, it did, now those guys are furloughed and should be placed below every working pilot @ CAL. They should be made whole by the management that wanted this merger so badly. That check needs to be written by UAL, not CAL pilots with jobs. It's shameful how these ceo's don't value a furlloughee's time on property. But unfortunately, that is exactly how this game of musical chairs/careers is played.
Glad I was able to make you laugh, you guys deserve a good one. Hopefully, this will trigger a merger for you guys and you can get back to the great careers that both east and west deserve.
05-05-2010, 07:11 AM
#94
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by EXTW
Going from a relative 40% on the original list to a relative 91% on the combined list, and going from Captain to furlough in 11 months is not what I would call doing "OK".
EXTW
EXTW
Where is this happening?
05-05-2010, 07:51 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 111
Originally Posted by cactusdog16
Thor:
With all due respect, you need to understand what UAL is bringing to the table (again, twice as many WBs as CAL and a huge international presence) and admit to yourself that the UAL pilots do have significant career expectations. Just because CAL's current upgrade time is shorter than UAL's does not mean that the career expectation of a UAL pilot is "nada," or even that "CAL's is 10x UAL's." That is simply ridiculous.
Aren't you salivating just a little at the prospect of your airline's widebody fleet tripling in size?? C'mon, you can admit it! Better pay! More days off! Who wouldn't like that? And now you want to jump ahead of all those United pilots who have been waiting in line for the higher paying, better quality-of-life equipment?
Straight relative seniority would place you closer to the higher-paying, better QOL equipment than you have ever been. It would place me further away than I have ever been since being a new-hire well over a decade ago. How would that be fair? If the fleet types of our two companies were more closely aligned, I would say straight relative seniority would be a go. But they're not. And it's not.
With all due respect, you need to understand what UAL is bringing to the table (again, twice as many WBs as CAL and a huge international presence) and admit to yourself that the UAL pilots do have significant career expectations. Just because CAL's current upgrade time is shorter than UAL's does not mean that the career expectation of a UAL pilot is "nada," or even that "CAL's is 10x UAL's." That is simply ridiculous.
Aren't you salivating just a little at the prospect of your airline's widebody fleet tripling in size?? C'mon, you can admit it! Better pay! More days off! Who wouldn't like that? And now you want to jump ahead of all those United pilots who have been waiting in line for the higher paying, better quality-of-life equipment?
Straight relative seniority would place you closer to the higher-paying, better QOL equipment than you have ever been. It would place me further away than I have ever been since being a new-hire well over a decade ago. How would that be fair? If the fleet types of our two companies were more closely aligned, I would say straight relative seniority would be a go. But they're not. And it's not.
Everyone will promote the upside at their own airline. I understand that. But from our point of view, and through absolutely no fault of the UAL pilots, the UAL company will be a boat anchor around our necks. Now I understand that the merger may be necessary. Although, I admit that I dont understand how reports can suggest the need for consolidation in one story then a following story saying that Southwest and lccs are looking to pick up the scraps. Sounds like the same seats to me.
But the point is that I do not believe looking at the ratio of widebodies between the two companies is the end all be all of how much UAL is bringing to the table. In fact, if UAL didnt have a decent quarter and we look back a few months, it would be just another period of an incredible story of writing off billions in losses again. We really have no idea how it survived through the last number of years. Everytime we would flip open the USA today, it was another report of billions of dollars in losses and we were certain yall would liquidate. So one good quarter does not a strong airline make. Old fleets and bad management. That is what they bring to the table. And that is what every United pilot I have ever spoken to wanted us to fix. Now it seems that may have been forgotten. Cal has quick upgrades to higher paying equipment. 147 on furlough that are hostages and not the result of business requirements.
Again, just my humble opinion. But the ratio of widebodies means nothing to me. I had just what I wanted and the likelyhood of maintaining it after 12 years and 50 some odd percent on my seniority list- with 25 years to go. We will all defend our own positions out of pride. But fortunately the arbitrators will take the emotion out of the decision. I wish us both the best of luck. Cheers.
05-05-2010, 07:54 AM
#96
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
Posts: 2,086
Merger FOOD FOR THOUGHT......
SIDE NOTE & FOOD FOR THOUGHT.....
It's 'great' that everyone is sharing their ideas on how a 'healthy/fair' SLI should shake down....especially all those directly involved in the "NEW UAL". I would dare guess that for a majority of the pilots on the combine list, this would be their first "Legacy/Major" SLI integration/merger. For the other half of 'seasoned vets', I would also dare to say this is the biggest integration (size wise) to date that any of us have taken part. When looking at it in this mind-set, it's completely on par that tensions are 'high' on the final SLI outcome.....up-front, everyone has to respect that.
I can't speak for the UAL side of the house.....but on the CAL side, our MEC Chairman Jay Pierce sent out communications last night regarding the merger. In distribution, he was clear in saying that the first order of business is tackling a "Joint CBA". He went on to state the SLI is something that will come 'later'/secondary (after the JCBA is ratified/resolved), but make no mistake about it, the first order of business is the JCBA.
With this agenda being set forth, it is loud and clear that both groups need to "come together NOW" regardless of how/or what you feel about the impending SLI to come. I will be the first to admit, this has to be a conscious decision, and not easy to do so when SLI business is still in the 'wind'. One thing is for certain on this merger, if WE (The NEW UAL) do not put outside SLI differences aside (for a short time), and concentrate 110% on the JCBA, our future as a joint pilot group will be grim at best.
Make no mistake, MGT knows that the SLI is something that many are 'pondering', and they will 'attempt' to use that to their advantage by 'distraction' in the upcoming negotiations. It is abundantly obviously that we are 'hell bent' in obtaining the CBA that we all deserve (rules/pay/retirement/ect...). As we embark on this course, we MUST to secure three things bar-none:
1) SOLID SCOPE that protects mainline positions at the NEW UAL.
2) Addressing/securing/eliminating foreign/JV flying that jeopardize future job security for all UAL pilots.....starting with first shot of Lingus IAD-MAD.
3) Most importantly/professionally say "FUPM" as a single group to our new MGT friends up in ORD.
In closing....if we don't not take care of this JCBA up-front as ONE SOLID VOICE, the SLI could be of little consequence in the future when Jeff/Glenn begin 'selling out' UAL Mainline Pilot Jobs as we have seen up to this point.
Just my $.02 cents......RESUME the thread & save some energy for the JCBA.
It's 'great' that everyone is sharing their ideas on how a 'healthy/fair' SLI should shake down....especially all those directly involved in the "NEW UAL". I would dare guess that for a majority of the pilots on the combine list, this would be their first "Legacy/Major" SLI integration/merger. For the other half of 'seasoned vets', I would also dare to say this is the biggest integration (size wise) to date that any of us have taken part. When looking at it in this mind-set, it's completely on par that tensions are 'high' on the final SLI outcome.....up-front, everyone has to respect that.
I can't speak for the UAL side of the house.....but on the CAL side, our MEC Chairman Jay Pierce sent out communications last night regarding the merger. In distribution, he was clear in saying that the first order of business is tackling a "Joint CBA". He went on to state the SLI is something that will come 'later'/secondary (after the JCBA is ratified/resolved), but make no mistake about it, the first order of business is the JCBA.
With this agenda being set forth, it is loud and clear that both groups need to "come together NOW" regardless of how/or what you feel about the impending SLI to come. I will be the first to admit, this has to be a conscious decision, and not easy to do so when SLI business is still in the 'wind'. One thing is for certain on this merger, if WE (The NEW UAL) do not put outside SLI differences aside (for a short time), and concentrate 110% on the JCBA, our future as a joint pilot group will be grim at best.
Make no mistake, MGT knows that the SLI is something that many are 'pondering', and they will 'attempt' to use that to their advantage by 'distraction' in the upcoming negotiations. It is abundantly obviously that we are 'hell bent' in obtaining the CBA that we all deserve (rules/pay/retirement/ect...). As we embark on this course, we MUST to secure three things bar-none:
1) SOLID SCOPE that protects mainline positions at the NEW UAL.
2) Addressing/securing/eliminating foreign/JV flying that jeopardize future job security for all UAL pilots.....starting with first shot of Lingus IAD-MAD.
3) Most importantly/professionally say "FUPM" as a single group to our new MGT friends up in ORD.
In closing....if we don't not take care of this JCBA up-front as ONE SOLID VOICE, the SLI could be of little consequence in the future when Jeff/Glenn begin 'selling out' UAL Mainline Pilot Jobs as we have seen up to this point.
Just my $.02 cents......RESUME the thread & save some energy for the JCBA.
05-05-2010, 10:40 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: A320/A319/B737 Sys Acft Maint Controller
Posts: 303
Originally Posted by Rocketiii
Hey, with all due respect I think we need to look at what UAL really is bringing to the table. We will all be flying together so there is nothing productive with talking down about each other's fleets. Not that you have, but just making a blanket statement. I have been flying internationally for the last couple of years as an FO and flew as captain on the fluff before that. I havent actually flown since February as I sit peacefully on reserve with no chance of working. All at a higher pay rate and guarantee than at UAL. CAL has orders for a huge amount of new jets. UAL has orders to just replace the jurassic fleet. Every time I was in Narita or even Los Angeles, UAL guys would come up and ask when we would merge and what have I heard. This as gone on for years. The truth is that yall wanted to get out of the money pit that Tilton dug. You have a lot of widebodies and many are on their last legs. That isnt some dream job to me. I have 12 years, have been a captain for a few and actually go back this month to the left seat. I fly very little on the triple and when I choose to fly a line I get 20 days off. On reserve I go months without flying. All of this in our most senior base. I get paid more in a 737 than your 'widebody' guys. My schedule is fine. I have over 25 years to go, so my career expectations are high.
Everyone will promote the upside at their own airline. I understand that. But from our point of view, and through absolutely no fault of the UAL pilots, the UAL company will be a boat anchor around our necks. Now I understand that the merger may be necessary. Although, I admit that I dont understand how reports can suggest the need for consolidation in one story then a following story saying that Southwest and lccs are looking to pick up the scraps. Sounds like the same seats to me.
But the point is that I do not believe looking at the ratio of widebodies between the two companies is the end all be all of how much UAL is bringing to the table. In fact, if UAL didnt have a decent quarter and we look back a few months, it would be just another period of an incredible story of writing off billions in losses again. We really have no idea how it survived through the last number of years. Everytime we would flip open the USA today, it was another report of billions of dollars in losses and we were certain yall would liquidate. So one good quarter does not a strong airline make. Old fleets and bad management. That is what they bring to the table. And that is what every United pilot I have ever spoken to wanted us to fix. Now it seems that may have been forgotten. Cal has quick upgrades to higher paying equipment. 147 on furlough that are hostages and not the result of business requirements.
Again, just my humble opinion. But the ratio of widebodies means nothing to me. I had just what I wanted and the likelyhood of maintaining it after 12 years and 50 some odd percent on my seniority list- with 25 years to go. We will all defend our own positions out of pride. But fortunately the arbitrators will take the emotion out of the decision. I wish us both the best of luck. Cheers.
Everyone will promote the upside at their own airline. I understand that. But from our point of view, and through absolutely no fault of the UAL pilots, the UAL company will be a boat anchor around our necks. Now I understand that the merger may be necessary. Although, I admit that I dont understand how reports can suggest the need for consolidation in one story then a following story saying that Southwest and lccs are looking to pick up the scraps. Sounds like the same seats to me.
But the point is that I do not believe looking at the ratio of widebodies between the two companies is the end all be all of how much UAL is bringing to the table. In fact, if UAL didnt have a decent quarter and we look back a few months, it would be just another period of an incredible story of writing off billions in losses again. We really have no idea how it survived through the last number of years. Everytime we would flip open the USA today, it was another report of billions of dollars in losses and we were certain yall would liquidate. So one good quarter does not a strong airline make. Old fleets and bad management. That is what they bring to the table. And that is what every United pilot I have ever spoken to wanted us to fix. Now it seems that may have been forgotten. Cal has quick upgrades to higher paying equipment. 147 on furlough that are hostages and not the result of business requirements.
Again, just my humble opinion. But the ratio of widebodies means nothing to me. I had just what I wanted and the likelyhood of maintaining it after 12 years and 50 some odd percent on my seniority list- with 25 years to go. We will all defend our own positions out of pride. But fortunately the arbitrators will take the emotion out of the decision. I wish us both the best of luck. Cheers.
How is it intelligent people can act like such Buttwipes?? Look!! Not a ONE of you could consumate this deal NOR destroy it!! It was SMISEK and TILTON who did this right under your NOSES, And believe What you want, TILTON is Still here!! If some of you "Brainiacs" were saavy in Buisiness you might want to recall the merger of Bank of America and Nations Bank and what the Nations Bank CEO Ken Lewis did to the BofA CEO Rich Anderson and engineered his FIRING!! You haven't done ONE damn thing yet!! NEITHER of you have a contact. You DON'T have an integrated seniority list! In short? You don't have SQUAT!! And you're arguing about the Price of "TEA in China"?? Dudes, YOU STILL have problems that need addressing, /BOTH GROUPS/ and they're BOTH in your Board rooms the head of the TABLE! Smisek is "Drooling at the lips" over running the combined Airline, and Tilton is sitting back rubbing his "Greasy" hands together Grinning like The Wolf that ate the SHEEP"!! Ol' Glen boy has done EXACTLY what his cohorts at Star Alliance wanted. Get a DAMN NEW YORK HUB!! And frankly?? They got a "Hum Dinger" jack!!
This isn't about YOU!! You guys need to wake up and smell the coffee!!
For Better or WORSE you're on the SAME TEAM and you'd better get Used to the IDEA and ACT like TEAMMATES !! OR, you might BOTH find yourselves STILL a the end of Tilton's Keychain as a "Watch Fob" in his Vest Pocket!! This is the SAME rhetoric I saw from those "Lieing-Gutless Dimwits" of USAPA when they "did up" the America West Pilots! Cut the Crap and get to work getting your Problems in your lousy SCOPE clause worked out. For the CAL group? We're not COMING to CAL, You're coming to United! The Rules, proceedures.and Agreement That is in place WILL prevail, and that includes that ABORTION of the scope clause that was forced on the UAL pilots diring the 1113 hearings in Bankruptcy. And while We're at it.. The ONLY reason it wasn't forced on YOU CAL guys during your TWO trips through bankruptcy, is because there WEREN'T any 76 seat CRJ700's or E-170,E175's when it happened. And I'm not sure Bethune would have been SMART enough Nor Shrewd anough to Use them like Tilton did. Say what you want about Tilton. He's done what NO CEO before him has done and his practices IN and OUT of bankruptcy in shrinking the seat allocation to regain Pricing flexibility and NOT chasing Market share as in the past have NOW become Airline Managment Business School "Case Studies"!! When Bethune and Carty tried to force UAL to sell Our Pacific Division by lobbying ("Shrub"= G-Dub Bush) to Deny the ATSB loans, Tilton not ONLY screwed YOU!! He screwed US, The Bankruptcy court!, The PBGC, and every damn body ELSE in getting out of $8 Billion in unfunded pension liabilities by abrogating the Pensions. And what did you, Don Carty, and "Buffoon" get?? That's right! NADA!! (Didn't hear Squat about you guys being Sorry for OUR loss either.)
So Smisek is trying to rectify that Right NOW.. He wasn't ABOUT to let Tilton get "cozy" with USAir.. Said so himself!! So tell me? Who was "PLAYING" WHOM?? (Am I making my point??)
If you don't quit squabling like "2 year olds" and Handle the IMPORTANT Business You might soon find you don't HAVE any business TO Handle because Tilton is STILL here until 2011! And,, He's STILL head of the pack! He, NOT Smisek sits on the BOD of Star Alliance. He, NOT Smisek is the President of Air Transport Assn. And if you guys aren't VERY Careful? Smisek will be sitting on the FLOOR in Front of the Throne while Tilton sit's ON it! Smisek still has to "prove" he can run the Company
I haven't seen him do Squat yet! All that you've got came from your FORMER CEO. While Smisek was in the ON Deck Circle.. I for One haven't seen him hit yet, don't even yet know if he CAN. And NONE of you have been so GOOD at what you're doing that ANY of you can afford to look down your pointed Noses and ANYBODY!. I'll be here working with Both Pilot groups. We'll SEE just how Good you are, Or AREN'T!!
So get to WORK and Pipe DOWN!! Those thieves at both companies aren't going to settle ANYTHING until The PILOTS' Contract is settled!!
05-05-2010, 11:57 AM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 111
I was about to type the same thing. The only point that is made in the tirade is that there is nothing we can do about it at this point as individuals regarding the integration. The direction of the companies are made by a few personalities that will come and go over time. We must protect ourselves as no one else will. I believe we should also stand united for our CBA. But the reason for my post was to illustrate that there will be hurt feelings as we are individually protective of our own rights. There is nothing at UAL that I want. Nothing from the uniform to an oil dripping, gas guzzling 747. And I assume no one at UAL wants to fly one of our 737s from IAH to OKC. So the widebody argument vis a vis career expectations isnt as clear as UAL has X% and CAL has X%, just as someone menioned in a fictitious mergere with Evergreen.
I dont want this, but Im just a pilot for hire. But I will be a team player. Just be realistic about the strengths, weakness, etc of our individual airlines and hopefully the arbitrator will see that. It is out of our hands. As a 12 year guy on a 737 that flies from Anchorage to Quito and everywhere in between, I dont feel like getting put next to a 12 year guy at any airline that has less than that. Date of hire, percentage or not. And I believe UAL considers a 757 a widebody (which it isnt), so I guess we could consider all of our 737-900s widebodies also since they hold nearly identical passenger loads. Its a slippery slope when going down the widebody is the end all be all of career expectations.
I dont want this, but Im just a pilot for hire. But I will be a team player. Just be realistic about the strengths, weakness, etc of our individual airlines and hopefully the arbitrator will see that. It is out of our hands. As a 12 year guy on a 737 that flies from Anchorage to Quito and everywhere in between, I dont feel like getting put next to a 12 year guy at any airline that has less than that. Date of hire, percentage or not. And I believe UAL considers a 757 a widebody (which it isnt), so I guess we could consider all of our 737-900s widebodies also since they hold nearly identical passenger loads. Its a slippery slope when going down the widebody is the end all be all of career expectations.
Last edited by Rocketiii; 05-05-2010 at 12:09 PM.
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